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Thanks for the knowledges.Test aircraft. Thankfully that didn't become mainstream; the aircraft already had pretty long legs without AAR.
Even for the drag ladened EP-3s, 10 hour flights were no problem unless it was middle eastern levels of hot and the extra fuel weight dropped the 3roc.Thanks for the knowledges.
I don't know about that. Nobody thought much about crew duty in those days, especially for tube rats. Bring more coffee, nap in your seat or roll out a sleeping bag in the backthink I remeber hearing the reason AAR was put aside was the human element. Couldn't really fit two crews in the plane to make use to any more gas than you took off with.
I don't know about that. Nobody thought much about crew duty in those days, especially for tube rats. Bring more coffee, nap in your seat or roll out a sleeping bag in the backPlane already had racks for pilots, correct?
I wasn't an ASW flavor of P-3 guy, but that makes sense.They didn't because they didn't refuel in flight, IIRC 12 to even 14 hour flights were the norm and you can't expect even the sharpest crew to do ASW down to ~200 feet for more than that (I know there was transit time included).
My point was that crew duty meant next to nothing back then, regardless of current or potential endurance. so it being a consideration for whether or not to have AAR may not have been a major consideration. I suspect there wasn't a good operational reason for mission profiles north of 15 hours to justify cost and training. As stated, missions were already going well over 10 hours without AAR and standard rest options. Remember, the stated limiting factor mentioned above was for crew rest facilities for the entire crew. I understand long mission events for the P3, and in the '70s, at least, they were done with little regard to crew rest with the exception of pilots taking a break in the rack. Those are the guys who need to be sharp in a low level prosecution. I did plenty of ASW at low level. Looking at a CRT tube at 200 feet looked just like one at 800 feet. I can't imagine the necessity to provide dedicated rest facilities for anyone but the flight deck. I admit I don't recall specific NATOPS crew duty requirements in the 1970s. Maybe someone saved their 3710 from 1978, if so I'd be curious to see what it says.They didn't because they didn't refuel in flight, IIRC 12 to even 14 hour flights were the norm and you can't expect even the sharpest crew to do ASW down to ~200 feet for more than that (I know there was transit time included).
I dont think the bottom line on whether to implement AAR was the crew fatigue element, but it probably wasnt the least of the considerations. Sure everyone in the back doesnt need a rack, but their effectiveness is going to be limited as time goes on.My point was that crew duty meant next to nothing back then, regardless of current or potential endurance. so it being a consideration for whether or not to have AAR may not have been a major consideration. I suspect there wasn't a good operational reason for mission profiles north of 15 hours to justify cost and training. As stated, missions were already going well over 10 hours without AAR and standard rest options. Remember, the stated limiting factor mentioned above was for crew rest facilities for the entire crew. I understand long mission events for the P3, and in the '70s, at least, they were done with little regard to crew rest with the exception of pilots taking a break in the rack. Those are the guys who need to be sharp in a low level prosecution. I did plenty of ASW at low level. Looking at a CRT tube at 200 feet looked just like one at 800 feet. I can't imagine the necessity to provide dedicated rest facilities for anyone but the flight deck. I admit I don't recall specific NATOPS crew duty requirements in the 1970s. Maybe someone saved their 3710 from 1978, if so I'd be curious to see what it says.
High altitude ASW and GPS buoys are the best quality of life gift. Sure, buoys take 5 min to hit the water from 20K but the system will account for it when it builds the magenta line to the tactic.At least as far as the P-8 is concerned, the AAR we do is generally for our ISR and not ASW missions. While fatigue is still a factor, especially in tight airspace, the low levels of ASW are typically not done with tanker support.
Some of the longer missions, with two to three tanking sessions, have extra pilots on board.