AW rate merger - Questions

[USN Dad]

Hello all,

I am a new Navy Parent whose son is at GL in Boot Camp and things seem to be going well for him. He is enlisted for Naval Aircrew and will be going to Pensacola after PIR in early August. Providing he passes the training in Aircrew Candidate School and Rescue Swimmer School I am curious about the effect of the new AW rate merger on new Sailors.

I understand the new rates effective in October of 2008 are AWR, AWS, AWO, AWF, and AWV. This is a large departure from the standard AW rate he was interested in during enlistment. I fully understand the "needs of the Navy" and have communicated this to my son but I still have questions for folks who may have educated guesses on the long term affects of this rate merger.

How are the new rates filled by prospective Sailors who complete the NACCS and RSS pipeline? Will they still get to complete the older AW pipeline including SERE and other schools? How is the choice of these new rates determined and does the Sailor have any ability to manage this effort with the the knowledge and understanding of the needs of the Navy?

How do you see this rate merger affecting what the Sailor gets to do while serving? What do each of these new rates actually do and how is this different than the older AW rating? He is off on this grand new adventure for the next five years and I want to provide some input from others who have been there and done that and also those who are doing it now. Please understand that I realize he is his own man now but a parent can't help but try to make sure he has all the information he can while he is serving our country.

It seems the new AWR and AWS are the main ones he is interested in. What is the main difference between these two new designations since they both are entitled Naval Aircrewman Tac Helicopter?

Thanks

 

[OldNavy]

I know we have some AW's here at Air Warriors, but here's a link to an AW specific message board

http://awhangar.com/

 

[HooverPilot]

I have several briefs on the subject and quite a bit of info. When I get back to work on Tues, I'll see what I have that I can post...

 

[USN Dad]

Mark and Hoover,

Thanks for the info and the offer to check on this. I appreciate the help. I called some retired Navy guys who live here in GA. We have tons of ex-military folks working for Delta and at Hartsfield. Even they are confused around what is happening with this merger.

Looking forward to your future posts.

Thanks again.

 

[Hozer]

In short, all fixed wing aircrew are consolidating into AW, that is flight engineers (who could have been AD's, AMS/H's, etc) , in-flight technicians (AT's), and any other legacy aircrew rates...
They will retain their subspecialty codes, called NEC's. It will be very diversified and the rating exams will be merged only at the higher grades, E-7 and above.
Helicopters AW's will be distinct too. They will still be jacks of all trades, and with the push to have HSL/HSM deploy on several ships in the CSG including the carrier, you'll see the lines between 60R/60B/60S/60H blur even more.

Helo AW's were different in the past, HSL and HS. HSL deployed on the support ships of the battlegroup (CG, DD/DDG, FFG), had lots of electronic gear on the SH-60B (radar, esm, acoustic gear, data link, etc) and were oriented towards tactical anti-surface/subsurface warfare. HS deployed on the carrier, the SH-60F carried a dipping sonar and was also oriented towards CSAR in support of the air wing.

It seems now the pool will be less segregated. Once you were HS, you generally stayed there, same with HSL. Now, the opportunity to move around seems better. I say seems, because it hasn't happened yet. Mayport is now the only site for 60B training, the 60R stuff is online at HSL-41 in North Island.
With the 60R being a configurable aircraft, AW's will be asked to do even more.

Bottom line, guys are thinking this will not water down the rate. It is and will continue to be an "elite" rate. I see the helo AW's today and these kids are great. Incredibly well trained, very tight group of folks. Promotion for helo AW's seems great until E-6. E-7 and above is tough, but that is a cyclical thing and is always changing.

Plenty of guys will complete the legacy syllabus, because there are plenty of 60B's around. Best advice is to excel in "A" school, after NACCS and RSS. The class advisor learns the desires of his students and the better the grades..well, you know the drill.


Many AW's get commissioned...there are at least 4 former AW's on this board.

I just MC'd a retirement at HSL-48 two weeks ago and my information is just from talking to the old guys there.

Incidentally, the new SAR school here in P-cola is very impressive.

Guess this wasn't so short, my apologies. Good luck to you and your son. It's a great time to be a helo AW.

 

[picklesuit]

AW Rate Fun

I am a prior AWN (Sensor Operator on the P3) who commissioned in 2006. The rate merger was just starting when I left. The way they explained it to us was that the individual segments of the rate (AWA/AWR/AWN) etc. would remain "stovepiped" until they were competing for Senior Chief (E-8) then they would all have to compete against each other. I didn't really see any effect on the junior sailors, but I know the FE's were pissed to be called an AW.

As far as Wet aircrew versus Dry aircrew we still remained in our respective worlds.

All of the AW's will still go to SERE school (all combat aircrewmen do) and, last I heard, your son will still come out of RSS as an AW3.

I'm sure you are proud of him, you should be. RSS is like the 3rd hardest school in all of the Navy (Behind BUDS and EOD I think)
I DOR'd in boot camp because I realized a little late that I was not exactly comfortable under the deep end. The AWC threw a blue rubber brick in the bottom, told us to go down and get it, bring it up, and tread water holding it above our heads....I think that brick may still be down there because I never made it.

Aircrew/RSS/A-school is hard, but it was some of the most fun I had in the military, I made a lot of great friends.

I still miss my beach runs and lighthouse runs.

Tell your son good luck!

(take Hozer's info as more gospel than mine, I've been out of the loop for a while)

 

[Mumbles]

I know plenty of ADs and AMs who abhore the thought of being called an AW.

 

[docpup]

USN Dad,

As a guy who is in the Fleet with the Helo Merger going on, here is a little more history. This is an overview of a constantly changing program, so please do not feel like this is gospel.

A number of years ago, the Navy helicopter community had multiple airframes and communities. There was Helicopter Combat Support (HC), Helicopter Anti-Submarine (HS), Helicopter Anti-Submarine Light (HSL), and Helicopter Mine Counter Measures (HM). In addition there were Composite squadrons as well as station Search and Rescue Units. There were also multiple airframes, snap shots of mission profiles and aircraft are below:

HC: Flew the H-46 SeaKnight and H-3 SeaKings for Logistics and SAR, deploying as a two aircraft and 30 personnel detachment onto cargo ships, Marine Transport (LHA, LPD), helicopter transport ships, or shore based airfields. Tasking came from multiple areas and was centered around fleet support. HC was the least tactical of the communities, and prior to the merger aircrewmen had to know not only all the flight publications but also a mechanical rating to fix and fly the aircraft they used.

HS: Flew the H-60F for inclose Aircraft Carrier anti-submarine warfare (ASW), and the H-60H for Naval Special Warfare (NSW or SEAL mission support) and Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR). They deployed with the Carrier as a squadron and had direct tasking from the battle group commander. HS was very tactical and used traditional AW's who specialized in being aircrewmen and tactical operators in their field. Basically only flyers who were experts at that specific portion of their job.

HSL: Similar to HS in mission, flew the H-60B for ASW. Deployed using the detachment concept (like HC) on smaller single spot ships (Frigates, Cruisers) with the mission of perimeter Carrier ASW defense. Tactical as well.

HM: Same as HC with crewmen having mechanical ratings to fix and fly the H-53. Deployments varied. They clear shipping lanes of mines as well as to mapping of these lanes.

Composite and SAR: Usually filled by HC crewmen. Flying H-1's and H-3's. Multiple missions including Rappelling for personnel rescue, drone recovery, logistics, etc.

Now, to save money on training and to consolidate aircraft type/model/series (T/M/S), the Navy adopted a Helicopter Master Plan. This plan introduced training tracks, rating mergers, helicopters, and re-organized communities as follows:

Training tracks:
Helicopter AW's all get the same training. They all attend Boot Camp, Naval Aircrew Candidate School, Rescue Swimmer School, SERE, and the Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS) enroute to the fleet. So if you have two candidates that end up in different communities they will acquire the same skill sets up until they get to their FRS. They teach the mission specifics of the end unit at the FRS. So, it standardizes the training for the entire fleet.

Mergers:
To get the best product for the fleet, all enlisted aircrewmen will be AW's. That way the personnel will be flyers or maintainers, not both (as in HC and HM). As with the previous example, this gives standard training and more flexibility for the needs of the Navy throughout the pipeline of training.

Helicopters:
Introduction of the MH-60S and MH-60R. These aircraft have the same basic maintenance requirements and common aircraft systems. This limits training money needed for maintenance, pilot, and aircrew training. Additionally, it cuts down on parts needed on hand in the system for repairs. So, again, two airframes VS the 8 of before means less retraining of personnel Navy wide.

Re-organized Communities:
Helicopter Sea Combat (HSC): HC, HS, and HM will become HSC. They will fly the MH-60S. Stop doing primary ASW and concentrate on tactical flying as well as Logistics, SAR, and Minesweeping. They will still deploy either like HC using the detachment concept or like HS on the carrier.

Helicopter Maritime Strike (HSM): HSL became HSM and will fly the M-60R. They will continue to be the Under Surface and Surface experts as well as tactical specialists.

Add ons:
Station SAR units are getting older H-60 models, or have been closed. Station SAR units are now open to any AW, not just the HC guys (great duty and a benefit of the merger). Drone recovery and other mission sets have been contracted to civilian personnel.

I can not speak specifically towards the fixed wing community merger, but I venture to say that the mindset is similar. Standardization of training for increased training savings as well as turning out a better end product.

I love the helicopter community, great job, people, and varied missions. The plan is ever changing, but incredibly rewarding. Throughout your Son's training, he will be faced with difficulties that may seem insurmountable. With support from you guys and some intestinal fortitude, he can do it.

Hope this helped you in your information gathering process.

 

[docpup]

I know plenty of ADs and AMs who abhore the thought of being called an AW.

AW now stands for Naval Aircrewman; not the everchanging "Anti-Submarine Warfareman" or "Aviation Warfare Systems Operater". That made a couple of my guys happy...

 

[Mumbles]

I was speaking specifically about the P-3 Flight Engineer bubbas who take a great deal of pride in their respective rate....whether it was AD, AE, AM, AT, or AO..... the consensus among the maintainers that went on to go to A/C skrool was that the AWs, (acoustic and non-acoustic) were primadonnas. That's one of the reasons there has been contention about consolidating the rate(s).

 

[zippy]

I know the FE's were pissed to be called an AW.

Oh, they still are...

 

[picklesuit]

the consensus among the maintainers that went on to go to A/C skrool was that the AWs, (acoustic and non-acoustic) were primadonnas. That's one of the reasons there has been contention about consolidating the rate(s).

Hey, it was hard work pushing buttons and making coffee, cut us some slack!

 

[docpup]

Completely understand their issue. Even in the NON-TAC HC community, the merger was a HUGE issue; especially the name. During the initial phase of it I was working at the SAR Model Managers office. The Master Chiefs of the NON-TAC world tried their collective best to get the name changed to something different back then, but the AW mafia had their way and it stayed. The thought process was that the AW rating was already established, the rating device was known and some continuity was needed.

Some NON-TAC merge guys jumped to the flight engineer world to stay away from being an AW. Initially the word was that if a maintenance flyer didn't want to merge to AW they could seek orders in the fixed wing community at their current rate to continue flying.

My main curiosity (because I my unfamiliarity of the fixed wing world) is what information will be tested for the merged fixed wing AW ratings. For HSC guys, they talk about OPNAVINST's, SAR PUBS, Tactical PUBS (mine sweeping, NSW), and community NATOPS (53 as well as the 60).

 

[USN Dad]

Thanks so much for those who have responded - especially docpup with the history info. I definitely know more now and it sounds like there is some info between the lines in the articles.

I had no idea this was such a controversial issue. I just assumed that Loadmasters , Flight Engineers, etc. - would stay in their respective rates and had no idea this merger was so encompassing.

Thanks again!

 

[HooverPilot]

I'm sure you've seen it, but here are some of the Navy Personnel Command links about the AW Rate (pre-merger):

http://www.npc.navy.mil/Enlisted/CommunityManagers/Aviation/AW.htm

The Merger message:

http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/60AF5C3D-84C8-412F-A5D9-9DD0A0EE6807/0/NAV08153.txt

Like I said, once I get back to work, I'll try and post what I've got there about the upcoming rating merger. As a COD squadron, we've been working with this for quite some time...