Be careful what you say...

[Pags]

Can the senior leadership please ask these "warriors" if they're aware that they're about to dedicate their lives to killing enemy combatants, with their bare hand if necessary, and tell them to please suck up all the ridiculous, petty bullshit? [/Utopian Fantasy]

Brett

you can kill all the people you want provided you don't swear and make sure you help the elderly across the street.

 

[Blacky]

Ya know, we wouldn't have to worry about sexual harassment OR oversensitive people if they would only re-legalize beatings in school...or dueling, either or....

-end dogbert-esque moment-

So true... People today are starting to get the idea that I care about what they think or that their opinions matter. The only senior leadership decisions made today are knee-jerk reactions and all aimed at saving their own skin, not killing terrorists. Take that PC crap and shove it up your a$$. We have bigger things to worry about than offending over-sensitive pieces of shite.

 

[Brett327]

There are SOME women who actually go around looking for chances to be offended. You can get into hot water for doing nothing.

And those individuals should be identified and administratively separated for inability to adapt to military life. They can go cause trouble at McDonald's, or somewhere the taxpayers aren't subsidizing their neuroses. That kind of behavior is no less disruptive or damaging to unit cohesion then a habitually drunk E-2, or an insubordinate E-5.

Brett

 

[KBayDog]

Sometimes you don't have to say anything and you can still get into trouble for sexual harassment. I was at NAS Jax in 1985...get into hot water for doing nothing.

This is one event in your four years of service. Unfortunate, yes, and it is a good thing that your command saw it for what it was worth (NOT sexual harassment). However, is that the only female you ever worked with in the Navy? My guess is no, and that 99.9999% of the rest had no problems with anything.

Let's all not be so quick to make generalizations. Sure, there are some bad apples. They are in the minority, and they need to be dealt with.

I've worked with women for all but the first three months (boot camp) of my career (working on 10 years), and have never had a problem with one. I've opened doors for both males and females (common courtesy), complimented females if they've had their hair done, congratulated them for hard work on PT, etc. No problems.

I've also counseled them for being UA, not complying with uniform/grooming standards, not being in shape, being overweight, etc. No problems.

Again, it simply comes down to professionalism.

 

[Fly Navy]

Sometimes you don't have to say anything and you can still get into trouble for sexual harassment. I was at NAS Jax in 1985 and was written up for sexual harassment. The only thing that I did was to hold open the door at the base exchange for a female LT., who had an armful of packages. She called over a MAA who was nearby and ordered him to write a report chit on me. Thankfully my CO was understanding and having the MAA testify on my behalf didn't hurt. He was going to open the door for her, but I got there first. There are SOME women who actually go around looking for chances to be offended. You can get into hot water for doing nothing.

Are you serious? This is a true story? Military or no military, what a C***. A person like that has no business being a warfighter, let alone walk around in society. Good lord.

 

[Fly Navy]

This is one event in your four years of service. Unfortunate, yes, and it is a good thing that your command saw it for what it was worth (NOT sexual harassment). However, is that the only female you ever worked with in the Navy? My guess is no, and that 99.9999% of the rest had no problems with anything.

Let's all not be so quick to make generalizations. Sure, there are some bad apples. They are in the minority, and they need to be dealt with.

I've worked with women for all but the first three months (boot camp) of my career (working on 10 years), and have never had a problem with one. I've opened doors for both males and females (common courtesy), complimented females if they've had their hair done, congratulated them for hard work on PT, etc. No problems.

I've also counseled them for being UA, not complying with uniform/grooming standards, not being in shape, being overweight, etc. No problems.

Again, it simply comes down to professionalism.

Absolutely. But remember who also generates the bad press, which is such a big player today.

 

[nittany03]

And those individuals should be identified and administratively separated for inability to adapt to military life. They can go cause trouble at McDonald's, or somewhere the taxpayers aren't subsidizing their neuroses. That kind of behavior is no less disruptive or damaging to unit cohesion then a habitually drunk E-2, or an insubordinate E-5.

Brett

Virtual rep points. Well put.

 

[KBayDog]

And those individuals should be identified and administratively separated for inability to adapt to military life. They can go cause trouble at McDonald's, or somewhere the taxpayers aren't subsidizing their neuroses. That kind of behavior is no less disruptive or damaging to unit cohesion then a habitually drunk E-2, or an insubordinate E-5.

Brett

Ah, but how do you plan to identify "those individuals?" Habitually drunk E-2s or insubordinate E-5s are easy to spot, counsel, try to change, and then send up for administrative "assistance." Those tools are already in place, and those are the very same leadership challenges we've had for 230 years.

Tell me, how do you identify someone who is looking for a chance to be offended? Do you think it is wise to spend your resources "seeking and destroying" those types? (Again, I don't know how you would do that.) Perhaps the witchhunt would only stifle those with legitimate complaints (and we all know that legitimate incidents still occur).

Or do you wait for them to come to you with a complaint, investigate the complaint, and then decide whether to pursue it based on its merits (or lack thereof)? If the complaints are without merit, do we just *can the person complaining, or do we try to bring that person back on board?

I freely admit that "those types" of people have been, and will continue to be, thorns in our sides. However, I argue that the answer is not to ID and can them immediately. We cannot take the easy way out. "Those types" of people are a big leadership challenge, but isn't leading people our duty?

We owe it to the individuals, the services, and the nation to provide quality leadership to "those types" as we have led the other types malcontents in our ranks.

(True, sometimes leadership means giving them a solid kick in the pants, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.)

 

[Brett327]

Ah, but how do you plan to identify "those individuals?"

Of course you can't engage in a witch hunt. You wouldn't do that with any other kind of offense, but if an individual is habitually making frivolous/fraudulent accusations, then they either are not adapting to military lifestyle, or have personality issues that the COC needs to address. I'm no head shrink, but someone who would get offended enough to take the time and trouble to file charges against someone who merely held the door open for them probably has a diagnosable personality disorder and certainly has no business being in the military. Of course, such individuals deserve the full benefit of due process and leadership provided by the COC, but if their issues persist, they need to be separated. The problem is that in today's climate, there are few consequences for those who make false accusations. This happened in my last command where an individual initiated an IG investigation with all sorts of ridiculous allegations. To their credit, the IG found the charges to be without merit, but the command went through hell while this was going on, and in the end, the accuser gets to walk away without consequence. This sends a message that you can make specious accusations to damage people's reputations. When we dilute the definition of sexual harassment, it becomes a slap in the face to those with legitimate grievances.

Brett

 

[JIMC5499]

Are you serious? This is a true story? Military or no military, what a C***. A person like that has no business being a warfighter, let alone walk around in society. Good lord.

I am 100% dead serious.

No that was not the only woman that I encountered during my time in the Navy. You are right the majority of them were a pleasure to work with. My point is that 99.99% of women you don't have to worry about, it only takes that one to ruin your day or more to the point your career. I was lucky. If there were no witnesses it was the word of an E-4 vs that of an O-3, who do you think was going to win. I have also ran into several like her in civilian life. With public sentiment the way it is these days, if an incident like mine happens and the media finds out what do you think the results will be? You won't be the first person the Navy's sacrificed in the court of public opinion.

 

[Gatordev]

I can't remember if I saw this on the site first, or found it on my own, but...

http://media.putfile.com/sexualharassment

 

[Fly Navy]

To their credit, the IG found the charges to be without merit, but the command went through hell while this was going on, and in the end, the accuser gets to walk away without consequence. This sends a message that you can make specious accusations to damage people's reputations. When we dilute the definition of sexual harassment, it becomes a slap in the face to those with legitimate grievances.

Brett

And I'm willing to bet that person ended up damaging the accused reputations, careers, and maybe lives.

I remember a case at I believe Brown University, where a male student was accused of rape by a fellow female student. Long story short, it turned out she was flat out lying and he was 100% innocent. Unfortunately, that didn't matter to the rest of the campus and he ended up having to leave that school because people treated him as a convicted rapist. I don't believe anything came of the girl who lied. That's fucked up in so many ways, it's not even funny.

 

[gregsivers]

I found it interesting that in the article said LCDR only interviewed females. Talk about an agenda. I don't suppose you'd get a distorted view that way. I'm of the opinion that if something offends you, don't listen. Makes me wish Joe Friday was still around "just the facts."

And I agree on the beatings idea....

 

[TheBubba]

I remember a case at I believe Brown University, where a male student was accused of rape by a fellow female student. Long story short, it turned out she was flat out lying and he was 100% innocent. Unfortunately, that didn't matter to the rest of the campus and he ended up having to leave that school because people treated him as a convicted rapist. I don't believe anything came of the girl who lied. That's fucked up in so many ways, it's not even funny.

I've seen similar stuff happen... happened to a bunch of people I know. They got screwed, girls made out fine.

Agree with Fly... It's complete crap that they let people who make blatantly false accusations get off scott-free while the accused's life get turned every which way but straight.

I say if someone makes a blatantly false accusation, throw'em in jail for a while and ruin their life... give'em a taste of what they put the other person through. Reciprocity has its up sides.

 

[ItsTurboTime]

I remember a case at I believe Brown University, where a male student was accused of rape by a fellow female student. Long story short, it turned out she was flat out lying and he was 100% innocent. Unfortunately, that didn't matter to the rest of the campus and he ended up having to leave that school because people treated him as a convicted rapist. I don't believe anything came of the girl who lied. That's fucked up in so many ways, it's not even funny.

I'm sure with the right lawyer you can sue for that. Not that I'd reccomend it in our disgustingly over-litigated society, but it'd be possible. Sad part is it still wouldn't fix your life, only ruin another.