Blackhawk learning curve during TF-160 inception, plus agressive flying tactics and training

[erikwriter]

I realize that is a very long title for this thread. I previously joined a conversation mid thread a few days ago and asked a couple questions about the Blackhawk during the inception of TF-160. I got some pretty awesome answers in response. I thought I would start a new thread and see if I could dive a little deeper.

I have been reading about the creation of TF-160 in the book, The Night Stalkers, by Durant, Hartov and Col. Johnson. In it, they discuss how there were growing pains with the Blackhawks during fast and low training missions and that some pilots and machines were lost.

I asked if some of these losses had anything to do with differences in flying a Blackhawk versus a Chinook or a Huey. Was there an adjustment period pilots experienced because of the Hawks engines, or rotor blades? Was there a difference in rotor RPM (is that a thing) or maybe the power to weight ratio that took some getting used to.

One person told me that one aspect of the Hawk that took some adjustment was the inertia of the rotor head. As a civilian I have no idea what that means. The same gentleman said the the Hawk also had more tail rotor authority. I assume that means it was more responsive and took some getting used to.

Another individual said the loss in Hawks in the beginning of TF-160 was more about the development of new, more aggressive flying tactics and OP-tempo as he called it then mechanical error.

I'm wondering if it maybe isn't a bit of both?

In layman's terms, what was the hardest thing about adapting to flying a Blackhawk? And how did that play into learning the fly more aggressively at the same time?

Lastly, I would love to hear some examples of the development of aggressive flying tactics?

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[webmaster]

Erik, if I might ask, what is the rationale behind these probing questions on tactics and airframes? Personal interest?

It might help us understand your motivation with regards to asking questions that may be construed in a different light.

Thanks,

John

 

[erikwriter]

Absolutely. I am a writer. I am considering writing a treatment for a film about the inception of TF-160. But before I put the many months of work required to do it right, I want to make sure I understand the hows and whys. I want to know how and why things went wrong in the beginning, what the folks involved learned, and then how they applied what they learned to improve their skills as pilots and also their tactics.

On a personal note, I find the history and the people involved inspiring. That is what motivates me.

 

[Duc'-guy25]

 

[erikwriter]

and I'm pretty skeptical of a dude who uses a cat pic to make a point, ANY POINT.

 

[Flash]

Absolutely. I am a writer. I am considering writing a treatment for a film about the inception of TF-160. But before I put the many months of work required to do it right, I want to make sure I understand the hows and whys. I want to know how and why things went wrong in the beginning, what the folks involved learned, and then how they applied what they learned to improve their skills as pilots and also their tactics.

On a personal note, I find the history and the people involved inspiring. That is what motivates me.

Unfortunately I don't think you will find much of what you are looking for here, not only is the info you are looking for from 30 years ago but by their very nature the folks who flew/fly in that unit are pretty tight lipped to begin with much less on an internet forum. If you are looking to go down that rabbit hole I would try and contact a special forces 'alumni' association that can put you in touch with the right people, if they want to. If you do get an intro, and that would be a big 'if', I would assume you would have to show you are serious enough about telling their story in order to get any sort of meaningful cooperation.

We use to have one member here who flew in that world for the Army but he hasn't been active in a while, he was more than happy to help folks who asked some questions but even the rest of us 'professionals' who might be curious about certain things didn't ask stuff on the open forum and knew not to ask much otherwise. It isn't like they are flying alien spacecraft from Area 51 but the less they say the harder it is for them to say something wrong.

 

[erikwriter]

Unfortunately I don't think you will find much of what you are looking for here, not only is the info you are looking for from 30 years ago but by their very nature the folks who flew/fly in that unit are pretty tight lipped to begin with much less on an internet forum. If you are looking to go down that rabbit hole I would try and contact a special forces 'alumni' association that can put you in touch with the right people, if they want to. If you do get an intro, and that would be a big 'if', I would assume you would have to show you are serious enough about telling their story in order to get any sort of meaningful cooperation.

We use to have one member here who flew in that world for the Army but he hasn't been active in a while, he was more than happy to help folks who asked some questions but even the rest of us 'professionals' who might be curious about certain things didn't ask stuff on the open forum and knew not to ask much otherwise. It isn't like they are flying alien spacecraft from Area 51 but the less they say the harder it is for them to say something wrong.

i think everything that you just said is totally reasonable. look, i read a book, The Night Stalkers, i had questions, i found this forum by accident, and i thought i would take advantage of the unique opportunity to learn from those who would know best. i do believe there is an awesome story here, but figuring out how to tell it takes time and understanding. before i go through the "proper channels" i wanted to learn a bit more about the subject matter. that's it. if folks are uncomfortable with that, totally reasonable.

 

[Flash]

i think everything that you just said is totally reasonable. look, i read a book, The Night Stalkers, i had questions, i found this forum by accident, and i thought i would take advantage of the unique opportunity to learn from those who would know best. i do believe there is an awesome story here, but figuring out how to tell it takes time and understanding. before i go through the "proper channels" i wanted to learn a bit more about the subject matter. that's it. if folks are uncomfortable with that, totally reasonable.

This is a unique forum but geared towards Naval Aviation with little exposure to what you are asking about, so very few if any folks even know the answers to the questions you are asking. A few might know second or third-hand info but probably don't want to say much to a random person on the internets. So less reluctance than a lack of knowledge on the part of almost everyone here.

 

[erikwriter]

This is a unique forum but geared towards Naval Aviation with little exposure to what you are asking about, so very few if any folks even know the answers to the questions you are asking. A few might know second or third-hand info but probably don't want to say much to a random person on the internets. So less reluctance than a lack of knowledge on the part of almost everyone here.

whatever the reason, like i said, i'm interested in learning. i could have been dishonest about my motive. i wasn't. if people don't know or do not want feel comfortable then that is all totally okay.

 

[Brett327]

i could have been dishonest about my motive. i wasn't.

I'm curious as to how you think that would have changed anything.

 

[erikwriter]

I don't know if it would have or would not have changed a thing.

 

[wink]

I'd say that you could get some real input about helicopter flight dynamics and engineering from the helo bubbas we have here. Start with that. Scrub some of the SOF references. Maybe that will inform you enough that when you go off looking form TF-160 specifics somewhere else you will sound a bit more savvy.

 

[erikwriter]

I'd say that you could get some real input about helicopter flight dynamics and engineering from the helo bubbas we have here. Start with that. Scrub some of the SOF references. Maybe that will inform you enough that when you go off looking form TF-160 specifics somewhere else you will sound a bit more savvy.

that is precisely why i joined this forum in the first place. to learn a bit more about the Hawks, how it all went down, etc... if i choose to pursue this, i want to sound like i have a clue.

 

[Brett327]

Any writing credits we could peruse on IMDB?

 

[erikwriter]

Any writing credits we could peruse on IMDB?

nope. nothing made.