CAL *Express* strands pax for nearly 6 hours .... ???

[ACowboyinTexas]

I read the news article about this too and it adds up to a load of crap to me. I bet if A4s had been sitting in that jet, those passengers would have had some relief. Trying to put this all on the shoulders of a lowly after-hours Mesaba rep sounds a lot like responsibility shirking to me. Definitely not an expert on Commercial air and I can't wait to hear what the experienced pros on AW have to say about it.
I'm asking; Couldn't the pilot in command inform the ground personnel something along the lines of "In 15 minutes this aircraft will be in an emergency situation, and I will be evacuating all my passengers onto the ramp. Standing by..." If I'm wrong, mea culpa. I'll gladly take enlightenment.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I agree. Laying this in the shoulders of a minimum wage worker from another airline is BS. This is pure lack of experience on the flight crews part. I would have found a way to unload the pax as would every pilot I've ever flown with at Hawaiian.

 

[UserName]

ExpressJet Crew Not at Fault in Ramp Delay

http://public.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2009/jumpstories/8-21-09story1.htm#jump

That article is total BS.

Its the worst case of doublespeak I have ever seen.

How can they say
"I’m proud of these pilots for standing up to the airlines "

The pilots did not stand up for anything. They settled and took "No" for an answer. :icon_rage

It seems to me if they stood up, the passengers would have been taken care of.

 

[scoolbubba]

I agree. Laying this in the shoulders of a minimum wage worker from another airline is BS. This is pure lack of experience on the flight crews part. I would have found a way to unload the pax as would every pilot I've ever flown with at Hawaiian.

I may not know much, and know even less about commercial aviation, but isn't the phrase "we are declaring an emergency" pretty much your free pass to do whatever the hell you need to maintain safety of the aircraft, crew and pax, be it in flight or on the ground?

No food, no sanitary facilities, and angry people being held against their will...recipe for disaster. CAL should be thanking their lucky stars this only turned into a PR nightmare and not something worse. Dispatch could have handled this better by backing the crew up to do whatever necessary to accommodate the people stuck in this situation, but a crew willing to lay their necks on the line for what is right could have solved the problem in 3 minutes with some headwork and decisiveness.

 

[HAL Pilot]

That article is total BS.

Its the worst case of doublespeak I have ever seen.

How can they say
"I?m proud of these pilots for standing up to the airlines "

The pilots did not stand up for anything. They settled and took "No" for an answer. :icon_rage

It seems to me if they stood up, the passengers would have been taken care of.

This is the union defending the pilots. It's the union's job whether they agree or not.

But I fault the airlines management and the Captain. They should have been calling the other airlines management. Plus the Captain could have just said "It's unsanitary in here. For the safety of the pax, they are getting off. in 15 minutes. Either get someone here to escort them, or I will."

 

[A4sForever]

Dispatch, OPCON, the airport personnel, and the cockpit crew putting their heads together ....

Personal experience -- when the first three didn't 'do it' -- make decisions -- I would'do it' as the Captain & the last (sometimes the best?) defender of the pax ...

>>>> Again -- I hesitate to 'quote myself' as I'm certain the more Freudian amongst you could have a field day with that particular neurosis ... and yes, just to get you started, I did/still do love my Mother ... but:

It's like I said -- when others don't make the decision(s) -- YOU, AS THE CAPTAIN, HAVE TO !!! YOU MUST make decisions and follow through -- as THE AIRCRAFT AND ALL THAT FLOWS FROM IT (crew, passengers, cargo -- hell, even those 150 pregnant Holstein ladies that we were carryin' from the Midwest to Taiwan ) ... in other words: ALL OF IT is .... drum roll .... YOUR RESPONSIBILITY !!! When you REALLY have a chance to 'shine' is when the junk that you have to deal w/ isn't in the checklist or the 'book'. THAT's when you really earn your keep ...

As far as the article is concerned ... John Prater ... or Duane Woerth (past tense) ... well, I don't know which one is worse, more PC, or more of a wannabe power-broker & bureaucrat in the guise of a union president. Those two gents would obviously rather be in the office, passing the power, than out on the line, goin' from A-to-B and back again. As ALPA President, their default position is to defend the ALPA flight crew members -- and that's NOT a 'bad thing' in and of itself ... but: you gotta' balance protecting the Brother/Sisterhood and living in the reality of the here and now. The knee jerk 'it's not the pilot's fault' response is not always the correct response, although for the Union, that is usually the case. Take that for what it's worth -- I've been 'in there' for 3 decades and seen ALPA -- the good, the bad & the ugly -- in operation. ALPA national is a 'can't live w/ 'em ... can't live w/out 'em situation for me, personally -- and for most of the 'honest' guys I know, too.

Ready Room Commando-ing and Monday Morning QB-ing is always easy, but I fucking guarantee you (and there aren't too many of those in this life ... ) that my pax & crew -- AND I for God's sake -- would NOT have sat in the aircraft just yards away from the safety & security of the terminal for nearly 6 hours. I wasn't there -- but somethings you just know -- and like I say, I know from 30 years of doin' it...

If nothing else -- I would have personally deplaned, walked to the terminal, took out my cell phone, and dialed 911 ... I would have told the 911 operator who/what/when I was and I needed some security for a plane load of pax @ RST. It would have been done. And I wouldn't have 'fried' for it -- 'cause it would have been the right thing to do. But then ... it would have never gone to that extreme, 'cause I would have got 'it' done via the radio long before the nuclear option was my only 'out'.

Remember ... fly the plane ... health, safety, welfare ... fly the plane ... health, safety, welfare ... repeat as necessary.

I heard some of the tapes ... let's just say that the CAPT did not invoke a lot of command presence or decision making authority. You have to be able to MAKE DECISIONS -- especially when you're 'isolated' and you're the last line of defense !!! And that's what they pay us for as you can train a chimp to fly an airplane .... or at least some chimps ....

"Mesaba is a wholly owned subsidiary of Northwest Airlines, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines."

Talk about someone trying to pass the fucking buck. The local agent doesn't 'refuse' any fucking thing that the CAPT says when it comes to the health, safety, and welfare of the ship, CAPT, crew, and pax (sounds a little like a dice game -- and being an airline CAPT is, in reality :icon_wink) ... it's just that this particular CAPT didn't know how to lay the hammer down and get the job done -- in my opinion, based on a limited knowledge of ALL the conversations -- but a thorough knowledge of how ALPA and the airlines operate -- and how a 'CAPT's authority' (read: command authority/chain of command) is suppose to operate.

*phew* ... I'm exhausted. Time for a cool one ...

 

[FrankTheTank]

*phew* ... I'm exhausted. Time for a cool one ...

Knew that article would kill some of the boredom of lately. Thought many of the same, when I read it in my weekly ALPA 'fastRead' junk mail. So glad that I haul trash and not people!

 

[jarhead]

...when others don't make the decision(s) -- YOU, AS THE CAPTAIN, HAVE TO !!! YOU MUST make decisions and follow through --

.... As ALPA President, their default position is to defend the ALPA flight crew members

that's the thing, that Captain could have been a "hero" in all this (or at least in the eyes of the passengers & the public) but because he/she decided to let others make the decision that night, he/she became a "zero" I'm with you A4, as the captain, I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit on an airplane overnight because of some other's jackass'ery & lack of common-sense approach to all of this...

... besides, like you said, ALPA would stand behind the pilot's decision either way.. if the captain "made the tough but right decision" & made shit happen that night & the "Man" tried to shit on the captain for that decision, ALPA would have loved the positive media attention for their pilots & the "looking out for the passengers" and would have thrown it right back in the "man's" face...

SF

 

[UserName]

This is the union defending the pilots. It's the union's job whether they agree or not.

>>>> As ALPA President, their default position is to defend the ALPA flight crew members -- and that's NOT a 'bad thing' in and of itself ... but: you gotta' balance protecting the Brother/Sisterhood and living in the reality of the here and now. The knee jerk 'it's not the pilot's fault' response is not always the correct response, although for the Union, that is usually the case.

It sounds like we are all in agreement that the pilot should have done something more.

You two make interesting points about the Union's job being to protect the pilots.

Regardless of what their job is, I was trying to say that I disagree with their "knee-jerk" reaction to blindly protect the pilots.

I am curious what the rest of the pilots in the union think about it. I guess it could be reassuring for the pilots to know that the Union will "go to bat" for them even if they do something pretty stupid.

However on the other side, it seems like it might undermine the union's credibility some. If the union automatically issues these "knee-jerk" protection statements, people will stop paying attention. Every time they do it the return gets diminished.

 

[Jim123]

Speaking as a possible customer of any airline and as a regular person, I believe the union's role should be to support the pilots regardless of good or bad decisions. That is different from blindly protecting them from the consequences of bad decisions... which is what I think we're getting at here.

 

[Catmando]

It sounds like we are all in agreement that the pilot should have done something more.

You two make interesting points about the Union's job being to protect the pilots.

Regardless of what their job is, I was trying to say that I disagree with their "knee-jerk" reaction to blindly protect the pilots.

I am curious what the rest of the pilots in the union think about it. I guess it could be reassuring for the pilots to know that the Union will "go to bat" for them even if they do something pretty stupid.

However on the other side, it seems like it might undermine the union's credibility some. If the union automatically issues these "knee-jerk" protection statements, people will stop paying attention. Every time they do it the return gets diminished.

The union's function in these cases is to always represent the pilot in his best interest, regardless of circumstance.

Like a defense attorney, regardless of a pilots actions or omissions, good or bad, the union is required to be there to help the pilot as his paid agent, and not to judge the pilot. It is not, "knee-jerk". It is the way the organized profession of ALPA has worked for many decades, and is an expected and natural result of union dues, representation, and brotherhood.

Additionally, A4s observations nails it regarding the expected duty and responsibility of the Captain in command.

 

[mtsupilot09]

A base tenant at my FBO had to make a trip to DEN last winter (he didn't want to fly his SR-22, and I don't blame him!). Weather had basically closed down DEN. The crew tried to get into Springs, but they were basically socked in there too. So, their plan C was Pueblo, a ga field. They had no airstairs, no TSA, and no passenger terminal. There were several diversions that day, most of them Frontier. After several hours of sitting on the ramp, the captain of my friend's flight, said screw this. He called the local FBO on the airinc (basically unicom) and got the line guys to bring a ladder from a fuel truck. He got a crew car from the FBO and called in a togo order for 100 burgers and fries. On HIS dime. The passengers were elated when they got to eat TGI Fridays. Like Nashville, they weren't allowed to deplane because they had no TSA. The TSA would have a shit fit if they knew the FBO allowed the passengers to deplane w/o their presence. They are already trying to apply part 121 rules to part 135 and 91 flights. We get airline diversions that don't have gates at BNA (mainly JB and Citrus). We usually make more cookies and give them plenty of ice. Most recently, a flight from SEA-ATL had to come here and the first thing they asked for were both lavs done! Those suckers were FULL! I feel bad for them having to sit on the ramp wondering why the hell they're in Nashville and not home. If the captain would call TSA and ask us to use our airstairs, I would have no problem letting them into the FBO to at least walk around.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Regardless of what their job is, I was trying to say that I disagree with their "knee-jerk" reaction to blindly protect the pilots.

I am curious what the rest of the pilots in the union think about it. I guess it could be reassuring for the pilots to know that the Union will "go to bat" for them even if they do something pretty stupid.

However on the other side, it seems like it might undermine the union's credibility some. If the union automatically issues these "knee-jerk" protection statements, people will stop paying attention. Every time they do it the return gets diminished.

The Union has to defend the pilots' decisions. It is what lets the pilots make the hard decisions without fear of retribution. If the Union only defended the "right" decisions pilots made, then this protection would go away. After a few pilots got fried for making decisions that in retrospect were bad calls, CYA would start to prevail over common sense.

Many times the decisions involve a substantial cost to the company. One Captain decides to divert for the weather but another Captain doesn't and gets in. In the company's eyes, the Captain that diverted is a goat that cost unnecessary big dollars. No union protection - good chance the company says "you're too expensive, go away". Do you want your pilots making decision based on safety or based on money/job security.

 

[A4sForever]

... It is not, "knee-jerk"....

And, as usual ... CAT's completely right *edit* and HAL, after reading his post.

I used the quick-term 'knee-jerk' because it was quick & easy (for me) ... and it described a pre-disposition of ALPA's to 'defend' the pilot ... and that's all it meant..... and for the rest of you: THIS IS THE FUCKIN' INTERNET, YOU KNOW .... don't take EVERYTHING literally ... if my term was 'repeated' as gospel or used as an example by anyone, then that is not what was intended nor desired.

To clarify: ALPA is the airline pilots' best friend ... sometimes it's his 'only' friend -- mostly 'cause the airline managements are the pilots' WORST friend as a matter of practice (in fact, most of 'em 'hate' you -- the airline pilot -- the guy who makes or breaks the company's bottom line) ... and those same airline management(s) that YOU , the airline pilot, make MILLIONS of $$$$$ for ... well, they will kill you/fuck you up/fire you w/out a second thought if you do 'anything' questionable or ANYTHING that might impact their bottom line --- as some of you will learn when you become airline pilots .

And yet, while ALPA is the line pilots' best friend ... it's also his "burden" in some cases (especially since the time of the presidency of J. Randall Babbit) -- that's as in ALPA's a boon & a curse .... one & both at the same time.

Why??? Prior to J. Randall Babbit: ALPA did NOT participate as a 'conscious' member of the AFL-CIO nor did ALPA endorse any political candidates ... and ALPA members voted 80%-90% conservative/Republican ... but today, largely 'cause of airline managements' predeliction to 'screw the pilots' ... that's changed. So factor THAT into your military officer built-in 'anti-union bias' ...

 

[jarhead]

...To clarify: ALPA is the airline pilots' best friend ...

that's all I was trying to get across in my post... that the captain of that flight should have known ALPA would have backed him/her so he/she should have made the common sense decision & got those passengers off that night.

My "anti-union" stance has weakened over the years A4 ... I'm slowly working off the bad experience I had with Teamsters back in the day that left me a little disgruntled with unions in general ... "slow down! I get paid by the hour" still haunts me though...

cheers!
SF