If the boat started giving per diem, it will be a nice surprise
Me thinks, better weather than my last deployment at least tho
-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
Career Reflections by Pickle
- Thread starter picklesuit
- Start date
If the boat started giving per diem, it will be a nice surprise
Me thinks, better weather than my last deployment at least tho
If the boat started giving per diem, it will be a nice surprise
Oh yea nvm then I forgot I was busy/LIMDU/or one to sea sickness and otherwise burdened with excuses...
Okay, slightly long one here, trying to put some words/thoughts together for next Pilot Training.
BLUF: I think we are losing our way as Naval Aviators in the P-8, becoming over-reliant on automation and unwilling to fly our plane to the extents allowed in NATOPS, and it’s leading to decrease in our capabilities as a crew.
Was onsta recently and had a cloud deck from 2K down to (reported) around 600. Needed to drop buoys. Cleared the helo out of our box laterally and came down to 500’ after having crew don LPU’s.
Got to 500’, we were in and out of the scud, sea state was up a little so I didn’t feel comfortable punching buoys based on Radar alone. Told Redcrown we were going to 200’, confirmed the helo was out of our box, kicked off autopilot and descended to 200’.
Spit our BT and started getting a lot of chirping from behind the (curtain) door about “Why are we down here” which is a common refrain I hear now anytime I tell the crew to put on their vest and go below 1K’.
Got the word from Redcrown they were rolling Exercise right an hour and climbed back up above 2.5K and got out of the seat, rotated as usual.
The next day, after several tasty beverages, was approached by pilots who were concerned I hadn’t climbed back up above clouds to discuss going from 500’ to 200’ before I did it.
Needless to say, I was fucking shocked. I fully expect every pilot sitting next to me to be able to fly the jet throughout the envelope allowed in NATOPS, both speed and altitude, and expressed that to them.
Still not sure if it is a generational thing or a P-8 thing where everyone needs a full-fledged discussion before we change altitudes, but my feelings are still if I need the plane below the clouds to spot buoys, strap in and let’s go.
This further manifests in the unwillingness to learn/fly VFR as a community. In the P-3 (I hate that phrase) flying VFR around the mountains, down the Lake Chelan Gorge, or down the coast was/is not a big thing.
Now I get Anymice (because too many people are scared of conflict) or ASAPs after flying VFR to the straits and back to Fairchild so I can get a target deck on a CAVU day.
I think we are so risk averse as a community that it is decreasing our ability to fight the plane as it was designed.
My goal, every flight, is to challenge the pilots with me to stretch their boundaries, whether that’s hand flying, rigging at 200’, or going into a new field on no notice, as long as you have the NOTAMS and WX, and I try to make them better.
Unfortunately I feel like I’m making a name for myself as a “cowboy” in the plane because I’m not on an IFR clearance all day and take the chance to go below 1k’ whenever I can.
Thoughts/comments?
Pickle
BLUF: I think we are losing our way as Naval Aviators in the P-8, becoming over-reliant on automation and unwilling to fly our plane to the extents allowed in NATOPS, and it’s leading to decrease in our capabilities as a crew.
Was onsta recently and had a cloud deck from 2K down to (reported) around 600. Needed to drop buoys. Cleared the helo out of our box laterally and came down to 500’ after having crew don LPU’s.
Got to 500’, we were in and out of the scud, sea state was up a little so I didn’t feel comfortable punching buoys based on Radar alone. Told Redcrown we were going to 200’, confirmed the helo was out of our box, kicked off autopilot and descended to 200’.
Spit our BT and started getting a lot of chirping from behind the (curtain) door about “Why are we down here” which is a common refrain I hear now anytime I tell the crew to put on their vest and go below 1K’.
Got the word from Redcrown they were rolling Exercise right an hour and climbed back up above 2.5K and got out of the seat, rotated as usual.
The next day, after several tasty beverages, was approached by pilots who were concerned I hadn’t climbed back up above clouds to discuss going from 500’ to 200’ before I did it.
Needless to say, I was fucking shocked. I fully expect every pilot sitting next to me to be able to fly the jet throughout the envelope allowed in NATOPS, both speed and altitude, and expressed that to them.
Still not sure if it is a generational thing or a P-8 thing where everyone needs a full-fledged discussion before we change altitudes, but my feelings are still if I need the plane below the clouds to spot buoys, strap in and let’s go.
This further manifests in the unwillingness to learn/fly VFR as a community. In the P-3 (I hate that phrase) flying VFR around the mountains, down the Lake Chelan Gorge, or down the coast was/is not a big thing.
Now I get Anymice (because too many people are scared of conflict) or ASAPs after flying VFR to the straits and back to Fairchild so I can get a target deck on a CAVU day.
I think we are so risk averse as a community that it is decreasing our ability to fight the plane as it was designed.
My goal, every flight, is to challenge the pilots with me to stretch their boundaries, whether that’s hand flying, rigging at 200’, or going into a new field on no notice, as long as you have the NOTAMS and WX, and I try to make them better.
Unfortunately I feel like I’m making a name for myself as a “cowboy” in the plane because I’m not on an IFR clearance all day and take the chance to go below 1k’ whenever I can.
Thoughts/comments?
Pickle
Obviously I am not qualified to comment on the state of VP community airmanship. But as @picklesuit relates it, I think he is doing God's work. We all know that the airlines now fight over dependance on automation. VP should not go down that road only to have to learn the lessons the airlines learned. I have always believed in the power of VFR. And in the authority of the aircraft commander. CRM does not mean you take a vote or convene a committee.
Did you discuss the altitude change prior to executing it?
Did the NATOPS brief talk about how and why you'd get lower than 500'?
Why do you feel like you're perceived as a cowboy in the plane?
Is this a bad thing?
If so, what actions would dispel the notion that you're a cowboy in the plane?
Hhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha. What a bag of dicks of a community.
Sorry, @picklesuit. I wish I could say I was shocked about this, but this is what you get when just flying around VFR suddenly becomes a big deal.
Sorry, @picklesuit. I wish I could say I was shocked about this, but this is what you get when just flying around VFR suddenly becomes a big deal.
You did nothing wrong. Tactically, you fly the aircraft as necessary to accomplish your mission as long as you are within the envelope of allowable altitudes/attitudes/airspeeds. What I've seen in my time since transition is that people who never flew the P-3 treat the P-8 with kid gloves - they don't like going below 1,000', they won't max out AOB, and they can't even spell PLE. There are a number of reasons for this.
The first is legitimate - the plane is basically built of fucking glass. If it gets struck by lightning, landed "overweight", or any of a dozen other things the bird will be down for weeks and the AC will probably get his peepee smacked hard for making a "bad" decision. I say "bad" decision because it was probably the right decision, but god forbid a box on the on CTG maintenance brief goes from green to red, the Chicoms might just win the war without fighting. The real bad decision was buying a plane that requires an FST to visit from Boeing to fix a scratch in the paint job.
Similarly with dropping buoys - we act like punching a -53 through clouds with a clear radar picture and no known friendlies in the area is tantamount to murder. If you aren't picking up a surface contact on radar, the likelihood of a buoy whose diameter is measured in inches managing to hit anything is statistically insignificant. Add in the fact that the buoy weighs less than 100lbs and has a drogue chute on it, you're probably looking at a one in a trillion chance you actually injure someone if you use all your mitigation measures. Leadership instills risk aversion in the squadrons by making it untenable to put the plane in positions where minor damage might occur or to accept even a .000000001% chance of hitting a random fishing vessel in the middle of the ocean.
Most of the other reasons pilots won't fly the plane aggressively are complete bullshit. Students are taught from the moment they start CAT I to fly the plane like they are airline pilots, not tactical aviators. I don't know why this happens (I have two anchors), but it does. I shouldn't have to debate with a pilot the necessity of getting low, getting slow, setting flaps 5 onstation, and maxing out AOB if it's necessary based on target evasion. The plane can do it, so do it. If, as a pilot, someone wants to admit that they aren't comfortable flying at 200' to do ASW then that's fine - but they shouldn't be in this community.
FWIW I know you said you got a lot of chirping from behind the curtain when you got low. A lot of crews don't like wearing their LPU's when doing ASW. I sure as hell don't, it's annoying and uncomfortable. But I fucking shut my mouth and do it, because when I was a nugget and I complained, I got my shit pushed in by my MC. ASW isn't about being comfortable - and P-8 crews have nothing to complain about with the working climate control and lack of CAD smoke. The MC makes the decision about the tactic, the AC makes the decision on how to fly the tactic, the rest of the crew does what it needs to do to get buoys in the water. If the guys in the back don't like it, tell them to STFU.
Did you discuss the altitude change prior to executing it?
Yes: “Descending to 200’, new low altitude (as part of our Low Altitude Brief) 170’, Autopilot Disengaged, your MCP.”
Did the NATOPS brief talk about how and why you'd get lower than 500'?
Not sure what you are asking here.
Why do you feel like you're perceived as a cowboy in the plane?
Multiple comments of “You just do what you want in the plane (that’s a true statement).
Is this a bad thing?
If it makes people scared to fly with me.
If so, what actions would dispel the notion that you're a cowboy in the plane?
It’s not actions, it’s words. My Fitrep debriefing included explaining the “Why” behind what I do and letting the whole team in on my reasoning. I think that’s the part I struggle with when flying with millennials.
Yes: “Descending to 200’, new low altitude (as part of our Low Altitude Brief) 170’, Autopilot Disengaged, your MCP.”
Did the NATOPS brief talk about how and why you'd get lower than 500'?
Not sure what you are asking here.
Why do you feel like you're perceived as a cowboy in the plane?
Multiple comments of “You just do what you want in the plane (that’s a true statement).
Is this a bad thing?
If it makes people scared to fly with me.
If so, what actions would dispel the notion that you're a cowboy in the plane?
It’s not actions, it’s words. My Fitrep debriefing included explaining the “Why” behind what I do and letting the whole team in on my reasoning. I think that’s the part I struggle with when flying with millennials.
True. And addressing possible CRM issues via Anymouse, rather than face to face in a debrief, is not good CRM and might just be “for millennials” ?
@picklesuit - sounds to me like you're doing what an aircraft commander is supposed to do: 1. Accomplish the mission by all required and legal means. 2. Train the crew.
I say well done.
I say well done.
This may be part of the (community) issue if you don't understand the question. There's a line in the H60 NATOPS brief about hard and soft decks as well as altitude discussions. I'm sure the pointy side has a similar brief point. If I were to be doing a NATOPS brief for ASW, regardless of platform, it would include altitudes and contingencies, all of which are going to be pretty low (given my platform experience and tactics....I get it's possible for you guys to be higher under certain conditions).
I think squorch's point was that if it's briefed that you may be going down to 500'/200' feet (which seems perfectly acceptable for the mission, from what you're saying), the crew has little to complain about since it was briefed well in advanced (and as you said, was also said at the time of descent).
I'd be careful with that. I agree, debrief by ASAP isn't good CRM, but as the AC, keeping people in the loop sometimes can smooth over the other times when you can't explain something due to outside constraints.
Or to put it this way...I don't talk to my crews now about every little thing I'm doing as much as I did when I was a new hire because they (presumably) trust me now, but I had to build that trust with CRM (and vice versa, even if they didn't realize it). I get it, you're the AC and the final authority (and responsibility), but sometimes that's not always enough, right or wrong.
I do have a question, though. Could we solve this community issue if we put the P-8 in the Delta and moved HSC over to the ASW mission? Asking for a friend.
If they're asking that question because they don't know the rationale, then that's not a good sign. I think barring any urgent SOF concern, your TC should understand the rationale for an altitude change, as the both of you are supposed to be a decision-making team when on station.
If they're asking as a way of expressing discomfort with flying that low, then I think that's an unacceptable risk aversion. Whether or not it was appropriate to that situation, MPRA crew should still be able to fly low when the situation calls for it. I dealt with similar push back when it came to practicing EMCON, flying close to helos, and using higher AOB to speed up pattern execution. VP community needs to embrace the discomfort with these things in the training environment if it wants to be more effective.
I think you're right, but like you suggested, it's little consolation if people are afraid to fly with you. What is your SMTI's take is on this?
God help VP I f this is the state of the community.
Sounds like you’re doing the mission and flying the plane right.
Good thing the decided against putting MAD on the P-8...those young pussies obviously wouldn’t fly low enough for it to be effective. Then they’d probably complain that it doesn’t work.
Sounds like you’re doing the mission and flying the plane right.
Good thing the decided against putting MAD on the P-8...those young pussies obviously wouldn’t fly low enough for it to be effective. Then they’d probably complain that it doesn’t work.
I'd think the role of the TC here should be to receive the MC's input of going below 500, then passing that to the rest of the crew (and being the firewall for issues from the crew). If TC has any tactical objections to this course of action, the time to discuss it is when the MC is telling him about what's about to happen.
When I was in theater way back around '04, I remember being in the JOC as the Navy HVAA guy. I was seated next to a the AF HVAA SME, who was a Mission Commander who had operated one of the AF HVAAs around theater for a while. I told her about our process for mapping out threat rings and having clear areas for operations and min operating altitudes mapped out before even getting to theater, and how most of the damn chart was red because of the mountain tops and threat rings. She looked at me blankly. I asked her what altitude they routinely flew at, and she gave me a number that would have given our CO and CDRE a heart attack, and would have gotten me sent home if I'd had us flying down there. So, yeah, we've been getting more risk averse over the last many decades. It's a problem with our zero-defect culture and it's only going to get worse.