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CBDR...what does that mean anyway?

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
There's something about being able to just look up and out a window for a sanity check on the 'trons.

Not speculating about Porter or any other incident; just my usual tongue-in-cheek AW "thinking out loud" post:

Wouldn't it be amazing if someone invented devices that allow you to have vision at night? I mean, how cool would it be to be able to see what's going on around you at when it's dark outside? Imagine the possibilities...
 

Hozer

Jobu needs a refill!
None
Contributor
^^^But then what would happen to Moboards? Jesus help us.
safe_image.php
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
A lively discussion is over @ SailorBob (SWO at work brought the site up). They have NO problem speculating!
Yeah... I brought up NVDs. Turns out there is no standard for using or not using them, not a whole lot of training on them or their limitations, and most people are scared to sign them out. <shrug>
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Yeah... I brought up NVDs. Turns out there is no standard for using or not using them, not a whole lot of training on them or their limitations, and most people are scared to sign them out. <shrug>
Seriously? I'll let any OOD qualified SWO answer this, but is it really normal to not have at least one member on the bridge using NVD's during high risk, transits like the SOH, at night ???
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
SRSLY. One explanation I got was "it interferes with dark adaptation." The mind boggles.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
SRSLY. One explanation I got was "it interferes with dark adaptation." The mind boggles.
They should pick up a copy of the NVD manual:

Army studies have shown that a dark-adapted individual reacquires dark adaptation within three minutes of degoggling. From operational experience, it is believed that a non-dark adapted
individual requires approximately 10 minutes to fully dark adapt or maximize unaided vision after removal of the NVGs. Full dark adaptation never really occurs in the cockpit because of the light intensity provided by instrument lights and other output displays (e.g., radar display, FLIR display, etc.).
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Seriously? I'll let any OOD qualified SWO answer this, but is it really normal to not have at least one member on the bridge using NVD's during high risk, transits like the SOH, at night ???

On all 5 FFGs I've been (four deployments and a Mid cruise), all the way back to 1996, they would have at least one NVD set up on a binacle out on the bridge wing. I'm pretty sure they would have two, one on each side, at least on the last couple of deployments. They're ghetto Gen 1 units that weigh a ton, but they were out there and were used all the time. If that isn't standard for other ships, it might be the first time a FFG had anything MORE advanced than other ships...and that worked.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
If that isn't standard for other ships, it might be the first time a FFG had anything MORE advanced than other ships...and that worked.
First of all, you have had FIVE deployments on FFG's ??? Holy shit I feel sorry for you :(

My 1052 Knox Class deployment in H-2's was a bit "austere" but five deployments on Figs is rough man. I wonder how much common sense is/will prevail in the wake of this mishap. NVD's just seem like a no-brainer piece of common sense. I know, I know . . . .
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
On my last cruise, the new Big XO (Prowler guy) came down to the RR one night and got his helmet and some NVGs and took them to the bridge. He said it was a complete novelty to all the SWOs. Not sure what came of it - probably nothing. The fact that they're not used is dumbfounding to me. Someone (in the SWO community) needs to write a point paper.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
First of all, you have had FIVE deployments on FFG's ??? Holy shit I feel sorry for you :(

My 1052 Knox Class deployment in H-2's was a bit "austere" but five deployments on Figs is rough man. I wonder how much common sense is/will prevail in the wake of this mishap. NVD's just seem like a no-brainer piece of common sense. I know, I know . . . .

Frigates: "We may be out of water and broken, but at least our food sucks."

Brett said:
On my last cruise, the new Big XO (Prowler guy) came down to the RR one night and got his helmet and some NVGs and took them to the bridge. He said it was a complete novelty to all the SWOs. Not sure what came of it - probably nothing. The fact that they're not used is dumbfounding to me. Someone (in the SWO community) needs to write a point paper.​

On my second deployment, my OIC was getting his OOD letter and happened to be standing watch the night we were doing a MIO/Takedown. He did something similar and grabbed a set of goggles and put them on the hand-held mounts (not sure if you guys have those) and watched from the bridge wing. Much clearer than the old Gen 1 tubes the ship had on the bridge wing...especially that night when it was dark as crap.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Not speculating about Porter or any other incident; just my usual tongue-in-cheek AW "thinking out loud" post:

Wouldn't it be amazing if someone invented devices that allow you to have vision at night? I mean, how cool would it be to be able to see what's going on around you at when it's dark outside? Imagine the possibilities...

Yeah, ships have them. Armory owns them and we kept them on the bridge and turned over between watches.

However, the handheld sets are pretty fucking worthless on the bridge. Maybe it's because we had shitty Gen 1/2 NODs, but they don't really help you clarify the situation other than "something's" there. And that "something" can easily be washed out in background lighting.
Keep in mind that requirements change when you're on a ship bridge. You can't look down, see a wake, and know what it's doing relative to you.
And the monochromatic tubes can make things more confusing considering you need the colors to really figure things out visually at any sort of useful distance.
We also had them standard issue in my RIVRON. They were new model and we obviously had helmets to mount to but they were even more useless in Chesapeake Bay with all the Virginia Beach background lighting.
I navigated fine with naked eye...needed colors to get the buoy lineups and ship movements. Coxswains and gunners kept NODs on, but only to spot unlit objects/shooting at night. Honestly it's probably hard to understand if you haven't had that perspective...I realize it really does sound as easy as "buy NODs, problem solved."

Now FLIR was a different story. We do need more of that shit. Great in both low vis and at night, fucking perfect really, but it also was originally designed to be used on a river, not in any kind of sea state. Ships do have a viewer that is as good though, it's called OSS/TIS and it is freaking money. No idea how it did or did not factor into PORTER's incident. Multiple FOV/zoom settings, and I've used one to correlate a radar track to a periscope that was "way" out there. I hate to speculate, but if they were using it that night, this probably wouldn't have happened.
Unfortunately, it's also not normally fed into into the bridge, we did some jury rigging on my DDG ride to make that happen. Bottomline, bridge needs a dedicated FLIR system or two to be used by the bridge team. Ours (NSW/RIVRON model) only costs 300K each and would be perfectly adequate for ship use as well. On another note, PC's have this, and it's set up on the bridge. Again, much better BRM/interface/whatever.

Point is, at long range, unmagnified NODs don't help much. We HAD NOD's the size of Big Eye binos mounted on bridgewings, but somebody up high made the decision to take them and not give them back between our first and second deployments. Something about no longer supporting the system....not sure how that's changed, but the resolution on them was good enough to matter out at the 15+nm mark.

It's why even though I feel bad for them, I'm interested in seeing what the report turns up. Would be nice to see some intelligent change come out of this instead of another kneejerk mandate to review RotR.
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
SRSLY. One explanation I got was "it interferes with dark adaptation." The mind boggles.

If the guy posting is a LCDR, he probably hasn't been regularly standing OOD in over 6+ years.

Not to mention you could just use one eye.
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
Not sure what came of it - probably nothing. The fact that they're not used is dumbfounding to me. Someone (in the SWO community) needs to write a point paper.
What can you say about a community that disregards GPS in favor of 10-20 guys all over the ship yelling out visual bearings to smokestacks and church steeples...and then comparing those pencil plots to the radar fixes being shouted up from Surface Plot in Combat...in order to enter homeport?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
What can you say about a community that disregards GPS in favor of 10-20 guys all over the ship yelling out visual bearings to smokestacks and church steeples...and then comparing those pencil plots to the radar fixes being shouted up from Surface Plot in Combat...in order to enter homeport?
I think the aviation community has pretty thoroughly vetted the concept of GPS/INS navigation at high speed. If I tried to navigate by shooting manual bearings and relying on DR and my radar, I'd probably crash into things too. This seems like a forest for the trees thing.
 
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