CG CO relieved

[eddie]

The Blighs.

Was Bligh the true fault there?

 

[scoolbubba]

There are plenty of examples of people who get command, promoted, whatever within the Navy and Outside World who seeminlgy don't belong in those positions based on an assessment of their competence, sanity, personality, or some other metric. But that metric is not necessarily the one that the organization is looking at.

Everyone is well versed in the fact that "leadership is not a popularity contest", so we shouldn't be surprised when some folks who get results aren't necessarily well liked. Throughout her career she was doing something right to get the correct paper that got her a major command billet. There are any number of scenarios that could explain how her demeanor was overlooked/ignored/etc.

Ideally, we'd all love to have perfect skippers who are well loved at all levels and get the job done. It's not always going to be the case.

On a semi-related note, more often than not, you do most of the writing on your own fitrep. Of course everything I write is going to be self-lauding and tell the board how awesome I am.

I don't think we're talking solely about someone who's just a bad leader, or questionable selection for department head/CO what have you. You don't just randomly decide to start chucking coffee cups at your subordinates when you get your own boat; this started somewhere before she put on O-6 and people didn't do their jobs by letting it slide. Her treatment of her subordinates was so exceptionally bad, and yet she got considerably farther than anyone with any amount of reason would expect her to, you have to wonder how many people just let it slide because she hit the wickets? What is the point of the FITREP if the whole person isn't reflected in it? DHs and CO's still have to read whatever you put in that narrative block...where was the QA on the rosy picture she must have painted?

 

[BigIron]

Because sometimes the insane promote the insane.

 

[Pags]

I don't think we're talking solely about someone who's just a bad leader, or questionable selection for department head/CO what have you. You don't just randomly decide to start chucking coffee cups at your subordinates when you get your own boat; this started somewhere before she put on O-6 and people didn't do their jobs by letting it slide. Her treatment of her subordinates was so exceptionally bad, and yet she got considerably farther than anyone with any amount of reason would expect her to, you have to wonder how many people just let it slide because she hit the wickets? What is the point of the FITREP if the whole person isn't reflected in it? DHs and CO's still have to read whatever you put in that narrative block...where was the QA on the rosy picture she must have painted?

....or, like I said, maybe her coffee cup throwing got results and her reporting seniors cared more about that than her behavior. Maybe she did her job and that's what her reporting seniors wanted. The fitrep isn't a personality screen or a "good dude" report card.

Everytime we talk about leadership on here, invariably more than one person talks about how sailors are "coddled these days" and that there's an "entitlemt mentality" in kids today. They say the world was better "back in the good ole days" when you could talk like a man and not worry about hurting someone's feelings. I'm sure if you asked CAPT Graf she might tell you that she was a passionate, forceful leader who didn't mince words and wasn't afraid to talk like a sailor and that her subordinates had an "entitlement mentality" who were concerned about their feelings. The line between this "salty ideal" and a tyrant is thin.

 

[Pags]

Was Bligh the true fault there?

Apparently enough of the Tars on board thought he was a tyrant. On the other hand, Bligh's superiors thought enough of him to exonerate him and eventually promote him to VADM.

 

[Jim123]

Good and bad bosses come in all shapes and sizes: check. Leadership =/= popularity: check. Sometimes things happen and people slip through the cracks: check (helluva crack). Superiors don't always see a person in the same light as that person's subordinates see them: check.

This is still an extreme case. Big picture perspective for me:

-Say the neighbor kid is thinking of joining up. Try to rationalize all this to the parents. "Your son probably won't get choked out... but if he does then let me explain this 'whole person concept' and 'results-oriented type-A personality'..."

-Starting from zero, explain to any random person, in the context of that 'military serving civilian masters' concept. "Thank you for your taxes but even more for your tacit trust in your military to do the right thing. Try not to think of it as if those bad things you read about were done basically in your name and the name of every citizen of this country..."

Doesn't pass the sniff test. There's also a big paper trail out there with a lot of reporting senior signatures.

 

[BigIron]

At the end of the day, this saga serves as a leadership example: One of how not to do it. Unfortunately this is one of many; albeit an extreme example. This story happened to make the world news.

Bad leaders aren't just in the SWO world. They're in every community. Aviators too. (GASP!!!!!)

 

[scoolbubba]

....or, like I said, maybe her coffee cup throwing got results and her reporting seniors cared more about that than her behavior. Maybe she did her job and that's what her reporting seniors wanted. The fitrep isn't a personality screen or a "good dude" report card.

Everytime we talk about leadership on here, invariably more than one person talks about how sailors are "coddled these days" and that there's an "entitlemt mentality" in kids today. They say the world was better "back in the good ole days" when you could talk like a man and not worry about hurting someone's feelings. I'm sure if you asked CAPT Graf she might tell you that she was a passionate, forceful leader who didn't mince words and wasn't afraid to talk like a sailor and that her subordinates had an "entitlement mentality" who were concerned about their feelings. The line between this "salty ideal" and a tyrant is thin.

No one who claims that kids these days are coddled thinks that choking a subordinate, or throwing a coffee mug at a member of the wardroom in front of the mess, or berating a Divo/DH in front of their people, or putting a Master Chief in a broom closet is one of the things they'd like to bring back either. Something about that whole "good order and discipline" thing seems to be missing from your image of CAPT Graf as the Salty Old Seadog of yore.

Are you seriously arguing that any of these fits the ideal image of the salty old guys who cut thru the bullshit and got results? I'd be willing to bet the salty dogs would have seen CAPT Graf for what she was and put the kibosh on her attitude/behavior when she was still an ENS. None of this would have happened, but nobody wanted to upset the tea cart back in the day with one of Big Navy's chosen diversity cases. What's that saying, spare the rod, spoil the child? Maybe a bit of the rod when she was an abusive Div O would have fixed the wayward Captain's ways.

 

[Seafort]

Out here in Japan, I have not heard one good thing said about HAG by the officers who served with, under, or near her. I think I felt Yoko breathe a collective sigh of relief when she was removed, but it quickly turned into an outraged groan when we all found out she'd been shuffled off somewhere and was keeping her rank and benefits.

 

[Pags]

Are you seriously arguing that any of these fits the ideal image of the salty old guys who cut thru the bullshit and got results?

Not at all. But I am saying that it's a fine line between "hardass salty dog" and "screaming tyrant". And what separates the two? If you "cut through the bullshit" with a poorly performing subordinate and tell them that they're all fucked up, where's the difference? Is there a difference to the guy on the receiving end? Is it a matter of your perception or theirs?

I in no way condone her behavior, I'm just providing some discussion on how her perception of her leadership methods was probably very different than her wardrooms.

I will agree that once you start throwing things you've pretty much jumped the shark.

 

[Seafort]

Not at all. But I am saying that it's a fine line between "hardass salty dog" and "screaming tyrant". And what separates the two? If you "cut through the bullshit" with a poorly performing subordinate and tell them that they're all fucked up, where's the difference? Is there a difference to the guy on the receiving end? Is it a matter of your perception or theirs?

Some of the officers I admire most have told me, "MIDN Seafort, you best unfuckify yourself asap!" The worst officer I ever had told me, "Seafort, you're an idiot. I can't believe you did X and Y. You're pretty worthless." The first was actually motivating. The second was a morale killer, even if it had absolutely no cussing and no yelling. Officers Unfuckify also took the time to tell me when I was doing things right. For Lt. Morale Killer, I could never do anything right.

There's a difference between lighting a fire under a subordinate, and just being a douche. I don't know CAPT Graf, but I do know officers who have served with her, and if even half of that crap is true, she is probably not an Officer Unfuckify, but rather a CAPT Morale Killer.

 

[scoolbubba]

I will agree that once you start throwing things you've pretty much jumped the shark.

Roger, roger.

 

[HeyJoe]

Time Magazine's coverage on CAPT Graf.

 

[Spekkio]

Ah, how could we have missed it? The good Captain was merely a victim of sexism in the Navy, that's all.

 

[nittany03]

Ah, how could we have missed it? The good Captain was merely a victim of sexism in the Navy, that's all.

The article insinuates the opposite, and I find it interesting that Time seems to be hanging on to this story. Pic at the top, though, is nightmare fuel. Was the artist dropping acid or something?