Change in the current practice/status quo: YES. Change in the agreement: unequivocal NO. The agreement already states that at the pleasure of the SECNAV you will be sent to the enlisted fleet.
No change in the agreement.
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Changes in NROTC
- Thread starter sbpilot
- Start date
Change in the current practice/status quo: YES. Change in the agreement: unequivocal NO. The agreement already states that at the pleasure of the SECNAV you will be sent to the enlisted fleet.
No change in the agreement.
Lovely back and forth, gentlemen. It actually cleared up my question about whether it was allowed. I did read the DD4 when I signed it, and I seem to remember it mentioned something about the option to pay back or enlist being up to the Midshipman should he be disenrolled...I could be wrong though. If someone could find the text from an actual DD4 so we will all shut up about this, that would be just ducky.
Either way, in practice I have never heard of a Mid being forcibly sent to enlisted service, except for one time, and it had something to do with disciplinary measures rather than academic deficiency.
If they are going to change the status quo, whether or not it was a possible or probable option to begin with, Big Navy should at least do the incoming students a favor and tell them that it's a more likely option than it was when I went through the program.
After all, I was told flat-out by one of my advisors that I'd have to basically be drunk and high as a kite all semester for them to enlist me, but that was back in '04. Was he wrong?
Either way, in practice I have never heard of a Mid being forcibly sent to enlisted service, except for one time, and it had something to do with disciplinary measures rather than academic deficiency.
If they are going to change the status quo, whether or not it was a possible or probable option to begin with, Big Navy should at least do the incoming students a favor and tell them that it's a more likely option than it was when I went through the program.
After all, I was told flat-out by one of my advisors that I'd have to basically be drunk and high as a kite all semester for them to enlist me, but that was back in '04. Was he wrong?
How else do you suggest they do it? On a sliding scale dependent on cost? What about the people that go to USNA, they would cost even more. Not practical to do it that way at all. And get used to it, life ain't fair.
I believe I knew one gal in my first squadron that was required to enlist after she dropped out of scholarship her 3rd year at Oregon State. She was never clear about the full story but a few guys from that unit were in the squadron and said she had always been a bit 'flighty'. Ironically, she turned out to be a bit of a problem child in the squadron.
What entitlement mentality? And like Squorch already said, changing a few names is likely not going to change it, whatever it is.
Slow down there, I don't know your backstory but 'profiling' and diversity are just one of the factors in awarding scholarships. There were a couple guys from my high school that got scholarships and being minorities definitely helped, but by no means were they unqualified. And at my college, which had few minorities and no women, everyone who deserved a scholarship got one. Even if they were almost all white dudes.
That's what the econ major in me would do; $10,000 owed= X months enlisted time. And no, I'm not ignorant enough think that would ever work, which is why I propose it stay as is.
I was talking the cry babies that joined the Navy to be a pilot and entertain the notion of DOR'ing because they got NFO, SWO, or Nuke. Changing one word won't do away with that attitude, but it could help- so what's the harm?
I know this is a sensitive topic. I doubt that everyone who deserves a scholarship gets one. There are many factors that play into that, one of them is diversity (gender/race). Without data, it's pointless to speculate how big of a deal it really is. I just don't think it should factor in at all.
Again to clarify:
Yes you MAY be allowed to repay, however NSTC 1533/5 clearly states that the SECNAV may elect at his pleasure to have you serve enlisted time instead. Most if not all attrites from the NROTC program recently have been given the repayment option.
The opportunity to repay is only one option that the SECNAV can choose from however.
To clarify further:
DD 4 = standard enlistment document, establishes NROTC Scholarship Mids as enlisted members of the US Naval Reserve at the E-3 level. (No mention of Midshipman)
NSTC 1533/5 = Scholarship Agreement, addendum to the DD 4. This is where you will find the information you are looking for. My guess is that if you google NSTC 1533/5 (or DD 4 for that matter) you will find a copy of it, maybe being served of the NSTC or NROTC website even.
Ok, I can stand the bantor regarding the arguement that you've said earlier...but I'll tell you right now, as a recorder on the NROTC board 2 years ago, that ANYONE offered the Scholarship deserves it. You wouldn't believe the process that the board goes through to select the future of our Navy. You'd be in awe and, in fact, should be a recorder on a board if you have any doubts.
The MIDN that we selected on that board were stunning. I probably wouldn't have competed with 1/2 of the guys that we gave the rides to. In fact, there were so many better picks than me that DIDN'T get selected. So, I'm guessing that I probably would have fell into your "Didn't deserve the scholarship" catagories...so please change that frame of mind now. It'll do you good later. I promise.
I'll give you data. When you go into a workplace and see nothing but one race, one income level, one experience level, one marital status, one of this, one of that, you can't learn anything new. Mark Twain once said "Don't let your studies interfere with your education." And while I used that line often to justify partying on a Wednesday in college, it can also be used to make sure that you're getting an education more from your surroundings and daily experiences than anything you can read in a book.
Diversity IS a big deal. We want, nay, NEED the Navy to represent a cross section of the public we serve. It's that simple. If you don't understand why that is, you will. You'll have to to survive in ANY corporate environment today.
When it comes to awarding scholarships, however, there is no unqualified personnel selected. I promise you, because I saw it. If there was a slight shifting of a "cut-off" for qualified individuals to include a more diverse candidate, then we included them. ALL of them. Meaning that if you were a white dood that is just as good as a black, red, yellow, etc dood, then you got selected as well. There was no "pick and choose" based on anything.
I hope this clears that up a little. Don't start your career with such concerns about the process...It's strong and will remain so.
BlackBearHockey
go blue...
Not only that, but to be a better representative of the enlisted corps, something more crucial than just bearing an accurate cross-section of the public.
I'm on the Selection Side for NROTC and I can tell you that this is news to me. Unless there was a MARADMIN or NAVINST about this, I wouldn't give it any validity. In terms of forcing to enlist, the applicant would have to acknowledge that on a contract. Then they would have to recite the oath of enlistment. In the recent MARADMIN (508/08) for recruiting NROTC-Marine Option applicants, it says 4 year commitment. It may be different for Sailors though.
Yeah, I think I remember doing this my freshman year (1996)...I always thought/knew that enlistment was a possibility and that the payback (monetarliy speaking) was at the discretion of the DOD...
Either way...I have no sympathy for people that don't read what they sign...like the dumba$$es who can't pay their mortgage. Piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine...Anywho...didn't mean to go off on tangent, but IMHO it's the same principle.
I trained with a few NROTC candidates that dropped from OCS. They told me that they had to pay back what they were awarded from the scholarship in X amount of time. I'm not a product of the NROTC program, I just gather candidates for for MCRC. Thanks for the good intel. The more you learn and retain, the less likely your foot will need to fit in your mouth. Err.
For 4 year scholarship students, they get a year to test drive ROTC. If they don't like it, they can DOR anytime in the first year and they have absolutely no obligation to pay back the tuition or stipend. At the beginning of their sophomore year they 'sign papers,' which is when they incur the commitment to pay back all the money or enlist should they drop.
In practice, students who DOR or are kicked out very seldom enlist and just pay back the money. Students who are booted for medical reasons out of their control generally don't have to pay anything back, again, in practice.
The OP is talking about NSTC forcing students to enlist rather than have the option to pay back (both options are in the contract so NSTC ultimately decides). This is undoubtedly an attempt to decrease attrition and it would probably work very well to that end.
I'm aware of the Non Ob first year, but now that I think of it I had a Marine at my old unit that was kicked out of NROTC or The academy (unsure of which) that enlisted as a result of what happened. He was actually a pretty good Marine. I've heard of a force reduction in areas of the Navy. Is this true or BS? Trying to give weight to the reasons 7599's and 7580's are being held up in the training cycle.