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Civil War In Iraq ????

othromas

AEDO livin’ the dream
pilot
There's a really good book out called The Battle for God that talks about the rise of fundamentalism in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It's a great read, and one of the points it makes is that democracy is something that works best if it grows on its own accord. Western society is the example the author uses in the book; while there was obviously plenty of strife, the Enlightenment grew of its own accord--no outside authority came in and forced anyone to adopt it in its full form. In the Middle East, though, democracy seems to have always been an idea that has been forcibly transplanted, an attempt to stamp the existing society into a mold that had been developed elsewhere, which as has been alluded, doesn't tend to work real well and causes a lot of bad feelings.

Of course, I'm not close to a history buff so correct me if I'm wrong.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
sirenia said:
I'm probably going to get some flack for this, but hasn't sectarian violence taken place within Christianity as well? ....

So what??? Not trying to beat you up, but the thread is about Iraq and perhaps the greater Middle East. This ain't about Christianity, in case you hadn't noticed.

If there was no oil in play, it would have as much import on our radar screen as, say, the not-so-distant tribal massacres in Burundi or Rwanda. The Arabs could eat their sand and no one would give a damn --- if it weren't for their oil.

It's about oil, power politics; fuelled by centuries of ill-tempered tribal attitudes and blood feuds that will never end until all the players are DEAD. Remove all the Jews and Crusaders and what have you got??? A bunch of nasty people still fighting among themselves and trying to kill each other ....
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Catmando said:
.....How'd I do?....."Every time history repeats itself, the price goes up." (Anon)

Correct-O-mondo, Catmando ..... :) I'm not sure what order the pix came out on your computer screen, but the gent in the cover was, of course, Winnie at a family confab @ 1908 or so. He was out of the Army (resigned) , but was attired in the the uniform of the something-Hussars --- no one knows why, except he liked military uniforms.

These guys taken collectively are basically the players who made the Middle East into the mess that we know and love today. That's oversimplified to a certain degree --- but not really.

Something for historical reference: Sykes-Picot Agreement http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/sykes.htm


This is a visual depiction of the reality of the Sykes-Picot Agreement:



Amazing how closely it mirrors the current distribution of Kurds, Sunnis, and Shias ... yes ??? Amazing how closely it mirrors what some have suggested as the "solution" to modern Iraq, i.e., split it into three parts ... :)
 

sirenia

Sub Nuke's Wife
A4sForever said:
So what??? Not trying to beat you up, but the thread is about Iraq and perhaps the greater Middle East. This ain't about Christianity, in case you hadn't noticed.


Umm...there is no disagreement here. As I mentioned in my post, I was stating that this is a case of sectarian violence that is caused by historical factors, which has no hopes of getting resolved by external influence. Just as with Christianity [using as an example] sectarian violence had to basically resolve itself internally. Perhaps I wasn't clear. :)
 

pittflyer

This is why I can't get into Grad School
pilot
FlyNavy is pretty close to the head of the Nail and if you get Brett and A-4's to hold the hammer, we've got a direct hit. Using "we" as a generality for advisers, analysts, congress, etc.; "we" were a little too bold (replace bold with "arrogant" if you will,) in thinking that we could waltz into Iraq and Afgan looking like the continental Army and set up a new democratic free world. I'm not sure if "we" were so confident that we brushed aside dawn of time history, or "we" neglected to even look at the dawn time of history in the region.

I'm not a communist, socialist, authoritarian, etc, but some peoples and cultures need a strong ruler, a strong leader. (Stalin was a many a bad thing, but it was what Russia needed at the time.) I'm not an advocate for those type of regimes, and it would be great if everyone could share in our freedoms, but its just not a candy cane, cheerio world. Hell, even we as a country went through a civil war.
 

bellebeast1

Hurry up and wait
Do you know who the author is?

you're right--I actually like to compare the time period we are in with the time of the middle ages--they middle east is sort of in its middle ages period, they have access to technology, but they won't use it because it is of the infadel or associated with the West which is considered wrong in most of the societies over there. The best example of it is the way they treat women--in Iran, the society over there will kill a woman if she comes out of her home not completely covered (England had quite a few cases of that in the 10th century) and if she has a job, it must be womanly. (A respectable woman until around 1920 in the west did only housework, or taught school and the goal was to work until you found a husband to care for you.) A woman who speaks out against anything in Iran is beaten if not killed. Same thing in the west previous to 1750s. A good movie to watch on the difference between there and here is Not without my daughter with Sally Fields.

othromas said:
There's a really good book out called The Battle for God that talks about the rise of fundamentalism in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It's a great read, and one of the points it makes is that democracy is something that works best if it grows on its own accord. Western society is the example the author uses in the book; while there was obviously plenty of strife, the Enlightenment grew of its own accord--no outside authority came in and forced anyone to adopt it in its full form. In the Middle East, though, democracy seems to have always been an idea that has been forcibly transplanted, an attempt to stamp the existing society into a mold that had been developed elsewhere, which as has been alluded, doesn't tend to work real well and causes a lot of bad feelings.

Of course, I'm not close to a history buff so correct me if I'm wrong.
 

bellebeast1

Hurry up and wait
In reference to the Sykes agreement of 1916 posted previously:

The split is based on two kingdoms that existed for over three centuries not necessarily on religion lines--the British knew that if they didn't split the two empires up, and place some kind of buffer between they would always be going in to stop wars from happening. because the two factions of Muslim religion have hated and fought with each other ever since the stupid governor of syria (sunni) killed the relative of mohammad (Shiite or Shia) in the late 600s early 700s

The first kingdom was the Ottoman empire that was defeated in WWI and its territories controled by the british/french etc (hense the map you displayed from the agreement)--that Ottoman empire was made up of Sunnis who would kill Shiia (both blue zones, half of B zone), and kurds on sight. Kurds are a mixture of both sunni and shiite muslim, so they are an imbetween religion. They were given the small corner of Iraq and Turkey to put themselves between the Ottomans and the other major empire( Part of A B zones)--the Safavids who ruled until 1900s over Iran and the lower half of Iraq when the British came and took over the area. Safavids were mostly Shiite and killed anyone who wasn't Sunni. (Red zone)

The whole middle east is ruled over by the Shiite/Sunni split--and don't call it tribal--if it was tribal it would be family against family. Its religion. and you ought to have some respect for it. Look at Christianity--we are split into over 800 factions just in the US. we didn't always get along--the Puritans burned anyone who was a quaker for example. and the US had an entire war over the mormons who are christians. Its all based on religion--everything in the middle east is based on religion, and they have hated Christianity and the west who give freedom of religion since the 11th century. they are obviously going to resent us and try and destroy us for interrupting what they think is a pure existance devoted to Islam, just as we would if they came to the US.

Yes--you're right, they whole thing is imperialism over oil--who controls it has the power over us right now and that is the only reason the west has ever tried to gain territory in the area. The question is--are we going to allow ourselves to become involved in a civil war over religion just for the oil and break our own laws?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
bellebeast1 said:
...are we going to allow ourselves to become involved in a civil war over religion just for the oil and break our own laws?
Yeah, no worries, guys, it's just oil. Oh yeah, and sorry for implying (or thinking) that tribalism has anything to do with history in that region - how imprecise of me.

Brett
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
Brett327 said:
Oh yeah, and sorry for implying (or thinking) that tribalism has anything to do with history in that region - how imprecise of me.
Good point. Tribalism (Yes Fly, that is a word ;)) has as nearly as much to do with the issue as religious factionalism does. Even if Sunnis and Shiites could reconcile their differences on a religious basis, one could argue that tribal conflict would simply replace religious conflict! And hey, whadd'ya know, tribal lines often deliniate themselves on religious views too!

Just thoughts...

I'm standing by to see what happens next.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
eddie said:
Good point. Tribalism (Yes Fly, that is a word ;)) has as nearly as much to do with the issue as religious factionalism does. Even if Sunnis and Shiites could reconcile their differences on a religious basis, one could argue that tribal conflict would simply replace religious conflict! And hey, whadd'ya know, tribal lines often deliniate themselves on religious views too!

Just thoughts...

I'm standing by to see what happens next.
Virtual rep. Who said the LA Unified school district was a hopeless POS? ;)

Brett
 

Lawman

Well-Known Member
None
Brett327 said:
Virtual rep. Who said the LA Unified school district was a hopeless POS? ;)

Brett

Umm... If I recall correctly, you did. On Several occasions I might add.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Lawman said:
Umm... If I recall correctly, you did. On Several occasions I might add.
Former fat kid must be a diamond in the rough. :D

Brett
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
Brett327 said:
Former fat kid must be a diamond in the rough. :D

Brett
Oh how I hate to stop or correct you, but your praises are slightly misinformed. I must confess, I am not a product of LA Unified. And, to make matters worse, only part of my education has been in public schools!
 
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