Coast Guard Predator

[Gatordev]

Well, we do have an asset like that, called the C-130 (OK, 14 hrs of flight time), however, video/FLIR is used more as an identification tool than a detection tool on the Herc. I'm guessing at the speeds they fly, and with their camera package on board they might have a better time detecting something, however sending it to find a small object, like a raft or overturned boat may be trying to ask of it something that the sensor suite wasn't designed for.

My thoughts exactly. I know it probably has better sensors than I'm used to, but using this for a SAR is akin to one night when I was asked to search for bales of coke using my FLIR. Um, no. And then threatened that I was disobeying a lawful order. Idiots...

 

[slug]

Well as much as I would love to have a UAV doing searches, the mod 1 eyeball is still the best search tool . Especially 4 or more pair. We do have some success with FLIR but finding a cold person in cold water is pretty tough with that system.

Well, we do have an asset like that, called the C-130 (OK, 14 hrs of flight time), however, video/FLIR is used more as an identification tool than a detection tool on the Herc. I'm guessing at the speeds they fly, and with their camera package on board they might have a better time detecting something, however sending it to find a small object, like a raft or overturned boat may be trying to ask of it something that the sensor suite wasn't designed for.

As Coasties know, doing more with less and using something beyond what it was originally designed for is standard ops in the CG.

Of course, use of this as a SAR asset involves a different pot of money (every flight hour gets charged to someone), and with limited hours they wouldn't simply throw this asset into a SAR response without some deep discussions waaaay above my paygrade.

I wonder how well a 98 degree person stands out against 60-70 degree water, or even a hypothermic person with an 85 degree core temperature on FLIR. I always assumed it would help for night or day searches, but the only people I have seen through FLIR were not hypothermic or floating in the ocean.

As far as the C-130 discussion goes, I know that you guys have a great sensor package, and I know the CG conducts multiple missions with each airframe, but I respectfully disagree that you are a more appropriate platform for search. The biggest reason for this is the cost factor--honestly, I don't know what the burn rate on the predator is, but I would conservatively estimate that with fuel/maintenance, number of maintainers and flight crew training/duty hour expenses accrued for each C-130 flight hour I bet you could get at least 100 predator flight hours for the same expense.

Finally, on the Predator's search capability, they seem to be finding, fixing and killing terrorists in Pakistan from high altitude quite well. Now that may be targeting a house or vehicle, but those sensor operators need to be able to identify their targets clearly, and sensor tech improves every day. If you can find, locate and shoot someone from altitude, the same technology should transition well to finding, locating and sending assets to save people.

 

[HercDriver]

I wonder how well a 98 degree person stands out against 60-70 degree water, or even a hypothermic person with an 85 degree core temperature on FLIR. I always assumed it would help for night or day searches, but the only people I have seen through FLIR were not hypothermic or floating in the ocean.

As far as the C-130 discussion goes, I know that you guys have a great sensor package, and I know the CG conducts multiple missions with each airframe, but I respectfully disagree that you are a more appropriate platform for search. The biggest reason for this is the cost factor--honestly, I don't know what the burn rate on the predator is, but I would conservatively estimate that with fuel/maintenance, number of maintainers and flight crew training/duty hour expenses accrued for each C-130 flight hour I bet you could get at least 100 predator flight hours for the same expense.

Finally, on the Predator's search capability, they seem to be finding, fixing and killing terrorists in Pakistan from high altitude quite well. Now that may be targeting a house or vehicle, but those sensor operators need to be able to identify their targets clearly, and sensor tech improves every day. If you can find, locate and shoot someone from altitude, the same technology should transition well to finding, locating and sending assets to save people.

I think you misunderstand my post; I'm not saying we are more appropriate at all, just that (a) We already meet the requirements you were setting out, (b) that I'm not sure the sensor package is appropriate for small objects in the water (which is quite different than finding and shooting a target on land). I did say we use FLIR as an ID tool, with the caveat that we operate at higher speeds in the herc. I'm sure you think that it is apples to apples since they are both searches to locate someone, but without accurate data on what the sensor suite can find in the water we are both guessing. Not sure how much time you have working with visual sensor packages, but I have enough to know that it ain't apples to apples. I'm guessing with testing and eval, that question will be answered.

But you are right that it would be cheaper; it is approx $10K per hour to operate the HC-130H.

 

[scoolbubba]

But you are right that it would be cheaper; it is approx $10K per hour to operate the HC-130H.

How much does it cost to sit on the ramp for 2 weeks at a time? Check that... I did see you guys taxi out the other day after our 12.5 burner, did ya'll earn your 93 bucks the hard way?

And as far as sensors, trick out the predator with everything you want and it still can't kick out a SAR kit, drop a smoke, or give someone hope flying at 15000 feet. Good luck finding a body with surface search radar and FLIR. Observers in the windows and eyes in the flight station found the poor bastard who jumped off a cruise ship about a month ago when the radar and camera missed him.

 

[HercDriver]

Hey, we were just down for 5 days awaiting a part. We needed to earn extra money for Lips, anyhow.

 

[scoolbubba]

Someone's got to support single moms down here.

 

[sardaddy]

I wonder how well a 98 degree person stands out against 60-70 degree water, or even a hypothermic person with an 85 degree core temperature on FLIR. I always assumed it would help for night or day searches, but the only people I have seen through FLIR were not hypothermic or floating in the ocean.

The problem is that it isn't a person we usually get to see. It is just their head and arms. Everything else is underwater and FLIR doesn't see through water. Even the parts that are out of the water get splashed with water obscuring even that part though. We can see boats and debris very easily with FLIR though.

In my prior aviation life I used FLIR all the time and think it is a great tool. However, someone looking at random spots through a camera scanning on a UAV with a FLIR doesn't seem the best option for many searches.

 

[slug]

In my prior aviation life I used FLIR all the time and think it is a great tool. However, someone looking at random spots through a camera scanning on a UAV with a FLIR doesn't seem the best option for many searches.

Anyone know if UAVs are outfitted with NVG-type sensors? What I mean is light amplifying sensors that will give the operator the same view a pilot would get looking through NVGs. Seems reasonable and would improve UAS capability above simply day TV/FLIR sensors. With magnification of those images, depending on weather (cloud cover/vis), I would think UAVs with a simple search pattern and actively scanning operators would be just as capable, or even more capable than current sensors, even the mod 1 eyeball, on helos/FW. Not sure if they can yet fly at 300' and below in bad weather though.

As far as dropping a raft and supplies, not difficult. Predators can carry multiple 100 lb. Hellfire missiles and drop them pretty damn accurately on the top of terrorists' heads. I think modding them out to drop a 40-60 lb. raft near a boat hull or PIWs would be no sweat. Hell, with an eye-safe laser locator, GPS and a JDAM package on a raft "bomb" you could put that raft within a 10' circle of whatever target you want.

All I am saying is don't underestimate the value of UASs. I think the former Secretary and CoS of the AF learned that lesson the hard way and are now working in a different line of work.

Besides, not to worry, they still need pilots to go execute the rescue... for now.