COC question

[HeyJoe]

Funny thing is, Mr. Cheney's involvement with the military kind of inspired this thread... Whether you like his politics or not, he's a vice-president that you have to take seriously as a policy-maker--unlike, for instance, Dan Quayle--and is widely regarded as the most influential and 'powerful' VP in U.S. history. So when you see his picture next to Mr. Bush's in gov't installations, it makes sense. I guess I was wondering if that was just a recent thing, or was Mr. Quayle's next to Mr. Bush's, and Mr. Bush's with Mr. Reagan's, etc...
Kind of related to that, what is the military protocol with elected officials not holding statutorily military positions (which is, as far as I know, everyone except the President)? Do you salute a Senator? A Congressman? Obey their orders as you would from a superior officer?

For protocol purposes, you treat them right up there with a four star, but you do not salute them. I've been to Capitol hill a time or two in uniform and there is an entirely different pecking order over there and uniformed military are pretty low in it. Gotta have a Congressional lapel pin and your "posse" to matter and the chicks know it. Talk about being invisible. They would never give you an "order", but they might ask you a question or two if you happened upon one or vice versa.

As to statutory authority, there is constant dialogue between White House/National Security Advisor, SECDEF and CJCS/JCS. Plenty of folks including he VP (if President listens) get to throw in their .02 before the President and/or SECDEF execute their authority to tell the Combatant Commanders to do something and you'll probably see it in form of message from CJCS saying "By authority of the POTUS", that tells the chain that the statutory "official" is making the call and merely using the C2 set up by the JCS. There are several books out on Desert Storm and OEF/OIF from high level that reveal all the players who have "influence" including Secretary of State and even CIA Director. Worth picking up to see how decisions go down in DC. Also should mention that Congress isn't in COC at all, but they also have to be included in dialogue because they can turn off the funding (VP and other White House players play key role in working behind the scenes to line up votes and support).

 

[Cornellianintel]

For protocol purposes, you treat them right up there with a four star, but you do not salute them. I've been to Capitol hill a time or two in uniform and there is an entirely different pecking order over there and uniformed military are pretty low in it. Gotta have a Congressional lapel pin and your "posse" to matter and the chicks know it. Talk about being invisible. They would never give you an "order", but they might ask you a question or two if you happened upon one or vice versa.

As to statutory authority, there is constant dialogue between White House/National Security Advisor, SECDEF and CJCS/JCS. Plenty of folks including he VP (if President listens) get to throw in their .02 before the President and/or SECDEF execute their authority to tell the Combatant Commanders to do something and you'll probably see it in form of message from CJCS saying "By authority of the POTUS", that tells the chain that the statutory "official" is making the call and merely using the C2 set up by the JCS. There are several books out on Desert Storm and OEF/OIF from high level that reveal all the players who have "influence" including Secretary of State and even CIA Director. Worth picking up to see how decisions go down in DC. Also should mention that Congress isn't in COC at all, but they also have to be included in dialogue because they can turn off the funding (VP and other White House players play key role in working behind the scenes to line up votes and support).

Great info there. All jokes aside, I'd know better than to screw with Cheney . For the record, though, I'm a conservative Republican who's lack of affinity for the VP has nothing to do with his ideological standing or Republican politics. I also know that as a Vice-President he has wielded more influence and actual hard power than any of his predecessors (and a few presidents to boot).

Just as an aside, I actually think that the salute is rendered to the VP. I wouldn't bet the farm on it, but maybe someone here knows a comprehensive list of civilians that receive salutes.

You're also right on about the pecking order on Capitol Hill. I'd have to say that while a four-star certainly has more power than a single Senator, you'll know whom to consider senior when you see them interact. It's actually a staple of our governmental system (of course) that the military establishment remain subordinate in form and function to the civilian government. When I met General Myers when his was CJCS I would have to say that he was treated with a great amount of deference by staff and interns (more than, say Senator or Congressman Joe-Blo), but he was more like a colleague to the members.

 

[Steve1001]

According to the manual, there's actually a large list of civilians we're "required" to salute. People like city public works officers and the like....reality is nobody does....in real life situations you'll save your salute for the Pres, VP, SECDEF, and SECNAV. If all else fails, rarely are you in uniform and there's no one else around, so just follow suit :icon_smil

 

[HH-60H]

According to the manual...

What manual? I ask because my memory is getting bad and I tried to look it up, so I looked in Naval Regs and couldn't find a definitive answer.

People like city public works officers and the like...

Are you being serious?

 

[IRfly]

As to statutory authority, there is constant dialogue between White House/National Security Advisor, SECDEF and CJCS/JCS. Plenty of folks including he VP (if President listens) get to throw in their .02 before the President and/or SECDEF execute their authority to tell the Combatant Commanders to do something and you'll probably see it in form of message from CJCS saying "By authority of the POTUS", that tells the chain that the statutory "official" is making the call and merely using the C2 set up by the JCS.

Right, but your truest statement is, "(if President listens)." Ms. Rice, Mr. Cheney, and Mr. Rumsfeld enjoyed enormous influence during Mr. Bush's first term because he listened to them, regardless of their "qualifications." In contrast, during Mr. Reagan's term George H.W. Bush (having been head of the CIA and a congressman) probably had some informed ideas that were worth a listening-to, but Mr. Reagan had him in the more traditional VP role of "being seen but not heard."

There are several books out on Desert Storm and OEF/OIF from high level that reveal all the players who have "influence" including Secretary of State and even CIA Director. Worth picking up to see how decisions go down in DC. Also should mention that Congress isn't in COC at all, but they also have to be included in dialogue because they can turn off the funding (VP and other White House players play key role in working behind the scenes to line up votes and support).

Decisions go down differently with every administration, and sometimes depend on the assertiveness of Congressional leaders. I wonder if these days, with the strong mantra of "support the troops" and the propensity to label people as upatriotic or Nazis (thank you, Senator Durbin...), Congress can credibly threaten the President's agenda with the "power of the purse." I think that the game right now is in the court of public opinion and determined by who can cause the biggest media feeding frenzy at any given time.

Back to the thread, I had noticed that military personnel in general tend to show a strong level of deference to elected officials (at least in person), and thanks to those who clarified exactly what that relationship is.

 

[HH-60H]

Back to the thread, I had noticed that military personnel in general tend to show a strong level of deference to elected officials (at least in person), and thanks to those who clarified exactly what that relationship is.

They damn well better.