• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

COVID-19

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
My brother-in-law is the Chief of Radiology at at one of the most prestigious hospitals in the world. If you have a problem that no one else can touch, his hospital is one of "those" that you want more than anything to go to.

You know what he said he'd have to do in an ICU ward full of COVID patients? He said, "Find the first fucking nurse to tell me what is going on and what do to because this is a completely different world and I don't have a fucking clue. I'm more likely to kill an ICU patient than help them."

Do you still want that Radiologist, or Psychiatrist, or Medical Examiner, treating your loved one? Medicine is a lot harder than you think. It's not a PQS, it's a whole field of study. We all studied the same shit in highschool- but fuck it if any highschool grad can really tell me how the English language works if that's what I need to keep me alive.
Come on! I know how "hard" medicine can be. You are missing my point. If this is a damned emergency, then it is all hands on deck. Before any radiologist or shrink goes into a residency they are a fucking MD, or DO as the case may be. Oh and you don't have to be helpful in ICU, where you may be a fish out of water. To your specific example, I don't need a brother in law MD or a nurse spouse to know that radiology is critical in COVID care due to the effect on the respiratory system. Again, to follow your example, I think the psychologists might be helpful to the stressed out health care workers and the family of victims that can't be at a bed side while their loved one slowly dies. The MEs are more than capable to doing biopsies and researching the actual causes of death (dying with or because of the virus). And that is keeping them in their specialty. If they ain't working at their regular hospitals or their practice is slow they can help. Don't make excuses for them. Unless, of course, the hospitals aren't as bad as they are making it out to be. Pickle gave the best analogy. If I had to I'd put a flight attendant in the right seat to put the gear down, read a checklist and scream at me if I got too low. So yes, I'll take your brother in law if the alternative is no doc or even a better qualified one dangerously fatigued.
 

RobLyman

- hawk Pilot
pilot
None
Come on! I know how "hard" medicine can be. You are missing my point. If this is a damned emergency, then it is all hands on deck. Before any radiologist or shrink goes into a residency they are a fucking MD, or DO as the case may be. Oh and you don't have to be helpful in ICU, where you may be a fish out of water. To your specific example, I don't need a brother in law MD or a nurse spouse to know that radiology is critical in COVID care due to the effect on the respiratory system. Again, to follow your example, I think the psychologists might be helpful to the stressed out health care workers and the family of victims that can't be at a bed side while their loved one slowly dies. The MEs are more than capable to doing biopsies and researching the actual causes of death (dying with or because of the virus). And that is keeping them in their specialty. If they ain't working at their regular hospitals or their practice is slow they can help. Don't make excuses for them. Unless, of course, the hospitals aren't as bad as they are making it out to be. Pickle gave the best analogy. If I had to I'd put a flight attendant in the right seat to put the gear down, read a checklist and scream at me if I got too low. So yes, I'll take your brother in law if the alternative is no doc or even a better qualified one dangerously fatigued.
Over 20 years married to an RN/BSN and 13 years as a medevac pilot myself say you are off target. If you had a brother in law MD, or especially a nurse spouse, you might have heard not just one or two stories, but dealt with them coming home an emotional wreck at the end of the day for weeks at a time because someone who shouldn't have died, did die as a result of poor decisions, hospital manning, etc..The hospital lawyers up and throws the doctors and nurses to the legal and emotional sharks to cover the hospital's ass. When people f$%# up decisions, they will do what they can to hide any facts revealing that they were advised to the contrary.These ground floor professionals really are on their own when this sort of thing happens. You would know this if you were married to a health care professional for any period of time.

This is important to grasp, because the decisions being made are not cut and dry as you have suggested. Labor and delivery personnel ARE being asked to man ER and ICU, and similar reassignments, without ONE SINGLE COVID-19 patient at the hospital! Half the staff is sent home to prepare for reassignment to other areas, then sit at home for a week and a half doing nothing. The remaining staff works overtime. Sill, no COVID-19 patients. The remaining staff asks for training for the upcoming new responsibilities they will be assigned (still short handed). Is the hospital acting on it? Nope. The number of health care professionals who quit not just their job's but their entire professions because of this kind of BS and stress may surprise you.

"So yes, I'll take your brother in law if the alternative is no doc or even a better qualified one dangerously fatigued."

And then your family will sue the living shit out of the hospital, doctors and nurses because you died, were brain damaged, or otherwise did not receive the quality of care you deserved. The nurses and doctors are left to deal with the stress, and maybe lose their license or are forced to leave the profession, all because they were just responding to "All hands on deck!" in a way they knew was not right, but they had no choice. They live with this day in and day out. The people writing in chalk on the streets today, praising the nurses and calling them heroes, will be calling Farah and Farah tomorrow wanting to know where their $$$$ is, should they suffer an injustice at the hands of a medical professional.

While some of your points are legitimate, you lack the same perspective gained only by being exposed day-in and day-out to the profession, or having someone in your household who is. I'm certainly not making excuses for them. I'm telling you how it is, because clearly you have strong misconceptions.
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Easy, guys... you want the same thing and that's the same thing all of us want- for our health care system to be as effective, productive, and sustainable as possible right now.

I'm learning from all of you by listening to your points of view and by reading each other's rebuttals.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
Come on! I know how "hard" medicine can be. You are missing my point. If this is a damned emergency, then it is all hands on deck. Before any radiologist or shrink goes into a residency they are a fucking MD, or DO as the case may be...So yes, I'll take your brother in law if the alternative is no doc or even a better qualified one dangerously fatigued.

I keep reading things of this ilk, about hospitals in the throes of the fight.

Medical students are graduating early to help in the fight. Pathology residents are volunteering on the medical floors. There is a complete subjugation of ego; senior physicians are performing tasks that they haven’t done since medical school. Medicine—normally governed by rigid hierarchies and siloed fiefdoms—is free.

...Amid an onslaught of cases, we are preparing for an even greater deluge. We’ve instituted a new system: while I see patients on the COVID-19 floors, I am simultaneously training another doctor to take my place, should I fall ill or be needed in another part of the hospital. These are often seasoned physicians from fields like gastroenterology or endocrinology—and so less directly experienced with infectious diseases or lung problems—who have volunteered to help with coronavirus treatment. They will be essential for bolstering the workforce when our capacity is further strained.

...I am also newly supported by a “virtual physician” who, it’s hoped, will allow me to see more patients more efficiently than ever before. These doctors work remotely; one’s always in my pocket, on speakerphone, during rounds. (Many are self-quarantining, or have other health issues preventing them from engaging in direct patient care.) The virtual physician functions like an all-in-one coach, assistant, and scribe, updating me on vital signs and test results in real time, reviewing the latest research and guidelines, and helping prepare the documentation I’ll have to complete later.

 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
@RobLyman , @Jim123 is correct. We do want the same thing. We are even in more agreement than you think. Firstly, you don't have to tell me about the medical malpractice liability threat. My wife is a 30 year member of the Defense Bar. I know it is a reality that must be considered. After all, over a quarter million people die every year from medical mistakes. Your rant is not lost on me. I absolutely know what you are talking about. Have heard it many times and seen it myself. It is simply a part of your professional life if you are a medical pro, cop or fire fighter. You just continue to do the right thing with the information and tools you have at the time.

Your observations that labor and delivery personnel are being asked to man ER and ICU, and similar reassignments, without ONE SINGLE COVID-19 patient at the hospital is notable. Apparently, in spite of protestations from you and others about how hard it is and the liability consideration, medical pros are being pressed into help some places. So it can be done, the point I was making. Additionally, you observe this is being done at hospitals without any COVID cases. While I share that frustration with you (who couldn't), it makes another one of my points. In all but a handful of hospitals across this country, we do not have a crisis. My beef isn't with the medical profession or even hospital administrators. It is with the media and many experts with nation wide exposer. They are not being fully transparent or in cases, honest.

I'll say it again, if we have a national emergency of health care personnel coverage due to COVID, do what you have to. If liability and licensing is a problem, pass temporary laws relieving some tort liability and relax regulation. The government is already do that in other areas. If there are fully trained and qualified people to spare in Flagstaff, or Omaha, compensate them enough to come and help where it is needed. I am aware of some out of area recruiting efforts for RNs. Don't know the numbers or success. But by and large, I see a lot of hand wringing over the work load and stress of exposer by all medical care workers because there aren't enough people. There is no excuse for over taxed over exposed personnel this far into the outbreak. @taxi1 just posted examples of what I am expecting, but people are telling me can't be done. So, just get it done, or quit telling me there is a constant stream of ambulances and stretchers in the hallways.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
Technically, one can be by or large, the two are generally mutually exclusive. By and large is a misnomer.

Sorry, reading too many 1800’s sailing books while locked down on base...
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I'll say it again, if we have a national emergency of health care personnel coverage due to COVID, do what you have to. If liability and licensing is a problem, pass temporary laws relieving some tort liability and relax regulation. The government is already do that in other areas. If there are fully trained and qualified people to spare in Flagstaff, or Omaha, compensate them enough to come and help where it is needed. I am aware of some out of area recruiting efforts for RNs. Don't know the numbers or success. But by and large, I see a lot of hand wringing over the work load and stress of exposer by all medical care workers because there aren't enough people. There is no excuse for over taxed over exposed personnel this far into the outbreak. @taxi1 just posted examples of what I am expecting, but people are telling me can't be done. So, just get it done, or quit telling me there is a constant stream of ambulances and stretchers in the hallways.
Why do any of that when you can simply induce panic to shut down the country and send everyone a check when they inevitably get laid off?
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
@taxi1 just posted examples of what I am expecting, but people are telling me can't be done. So, just get it done, or quit telling me there is a constant stream of ambulances and stretchers in the hallways.

Unfortunately that's a very militaristic mindset that may not exist elsewhere.

It takes a certain level of training to make a 19 year old kid charge a machine gun nest without question in the face of their own death. And we don't hold them accountable by telling them that they are no longer Marines when they survive but couldn't do it.

Perhaps those legislative measures would help.


I, too, get frustrated when an ER doc, when an ICO nurse, says, "This isn't what I signed up for." But I would have a measured level of understanding if a Sub Nuke somehow found their way into an infantry company; and, as an officer, an understanding of when that nuke kid would be more of a liability than a help while we are clearing a house full of bad guys. "Hey kid, why don't you wait in the tree line here, if a bad guy runs past this point- shoot them. And call me if someone else shows up. Here's a radio- do you know how this works?"

Training is going to be the name of the game. Hopefully we have enough time.
 
Top