Don't Ask Don't Tell going away

[phrogpilot73]

Whatever the percentages might be, misconduct is misconduct regardless of DADT, so all the histrionics about meat gazing, etc seem fairly ridiculous to me.

I agree with you that misconduct is misconduct. However, the problem I forsee happening is men feeling comfortable with coming forward/reporting that they have been harassed.

 

[phrogdriver]

Maybe some illumination can be found here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/28/afghan-men-struggle-sexual-identity-study-finds/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+foxnews%252Flatest+%2528Text+-+Latest+Headlines%2529

I read the original study in Afghanistan and was very interesting. A good insight into the mind of their culture.

Although Aghans aren't Arabs, I think the concept does have merit in much of the Middle East and Central Asia.

 

[HeyJoe]

Does ANY US Citizen have a RIGHT to serve? The last time I checked, military service was not a RIGHT but a PRIVILEGE.

Here is what the current law says right up front on that:

Public Law 103-160 Nov. 30, 1993 ? § 546, 107 Stat. 1670 (1993) (codified at 10 U.S.C. A. § 654).

§ 654. POLICY CONCERNING HOMOSEXUALS IN THE ARMED FORCES.

(a) Findings: Congress makes the following findings:

(1) Section 8 of article I of the Constitution of the United States commits exclusively to the Congress the powers to raise and support armies, provide and maintain a Navy, and make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces.

(2) There is no constitutional right to serve in the armed forces.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Although Aghans aren't Arabs, I think the concept does have merit in much of the Middle East and Central Asia.

I never said that Afghans were Arabs, but you are correct. I should have been more clear in what I was addressing. I was expanding "Arabic linsuists" to include Pashtu, Farsi, Dari, etc. In short, all middle eastern languages peculiar to muslim cultures in the region.

For a number of reasons they tend to have an unusual perspective of homosexuality that might explain why so many of the lingusits are gay.

Of course, if you asked your average local Afghan male, he sould say "I'm not homosexual, I just like to have sex with men and little boys".

Ummmm.......what?

 

[Feet Wet]

Not so fast.....

Adultery is an actual problem that affects good order and discipline. People who commit this offense have no honor. They are, by definition, liars and untrustworthy. If your own spouse can't trust you, then why should anybody else? I know that in normal society that adultery is considered "no big deal", but that's where it's parallels to homsexual conduct stop in terms of military service. Adulterers conduct can greatly affect the effectiveness of a unit, particularly on the small unit level. I don't believe that homosexuals lack honor simply for being homosexual.

I have seen quite a bit of adultery get punished under the UCMJ. Some of it as a single offense (not piled on with other charges). There are varying degrees of this offense, and it probably gets brushed under the rug more than it should, but that's probably more because of the burden of proof than simple tolerance. If you flagrantly commit adultery, you should (and probably will) get hammered for it. It shows that you have no regard for your oath to your spouse (and God, if you see it that way), your obligation to obey regulations, or your own integrity. You made a choice to dishonor yourself. This is not about the military being stuck in the past. There are real consequences to the command for your conduct.

If you want to elimninate a meaningless and outdated part of 134, it should be cohabitation. I've never seen that affect good order and disciplne, nor have I ever seen it enforced.

As for adultery rising to the level of conduct unbecoming, article 133 only applies to officers.

I absolutely agree. I have seen more than my share of it, and it is almost ALWAYS swept under the rug. Marine Aviation leadership is LOADED with them. The stories are endless, and there are a lot of dirt bags still out there. I understand why folks want to go crazy on det or deployment, but for f'k sake, why would you get married/have kids/do the family bit, if you act like a Kennedy once you are two TACAN stations away?

 

[zippy]

I was wrong in my fears about expanding roles of females. I was sure that testosterone would block synapses with increased friggin in the riggin, that females would become pregnant reducing performance levels, fraternization would reduce good order and discipline, females would get pregnant to avoid harsh duty and etc. I was wrong; the Navy has survived and apparently none the worse, none of these problems have occurred. Apparently.

You weren't wrong, these things happen on a very regular basis. The Navy has adapted and survived... and deemed any degradation to good order, discipline and combat effectiveness as a cost that the benefits the change outweigh.

Regardless of the personal opinions of everyone involved, when the order to change comes down the Navy will adapt and accept any sort of degradation to the service as a cost that doesn't outweigh the benefit of what is gained by the change. Those who can accept the change will stay in and continue their service. Those who can't will retire or get out at the end of their enlistments and service commitments. Ships and subs will still put to sea, squadrons will still deploy, NKO training will increase and another protected group will probably form... but the Navy, and all the other services, will still survive.

 

[eddie]

I never said that Afghans were Arabs, but you are correct. I should have been more clrear in what I was addressing. I was expanding "Arabic linsuists" to include Pashtu, Farsi, Dari, etc. In short, all middle eastern languages peculiar to muslim cultures in the region.

For a number of reasons they tend to have an unusual perspective of homosexuality that might explain why so many of the lingusits are gay.

Of course, if you asked your average local Afghan male, he sould say "I'm not homosexual, I just like to have sex with men and little boys".

Ummmm.......what?

I feel like this was pretty normative in much of the "Old World," back in the day. Seems like this kind of thing always boils down to women being "unavailable," be it for grander societal mysoginy, physical absence (prison), or, in cases, vows of celibacy. Wonder if anyone has ever tried to correlate this behavior dying out (culturally) with certain points or paths of development.

Weird.

 

[HeyJoe]

I feel like this was pretty normative in much of the "Old World," back in the day. Seems like this kind of thing always boils down to women being "unavailable," be it for grander societal mysoginy, physical absence (prison), or, in cases, vows of celibacy. Wonder if anyone has ever tried to correlate this behavior dying out (culturally) with certain points or paths of development.

Weird.

"Normative?" Better look up how that applies in Ethics because you're implying that would be the Ethical standard of how things should be, not how they are or were. "Normal" behavioral practice? Perhaps, as Alexander and many Greeks went both ways in a social hieracrchy of behavior and it wasn't because women were unavailable. Often times they were relegated to prescribed roles (childbearing or in case of social uppercrust, offered for marriage to achieve a political end). There are tales of Caesar rising to prominence by friendship of same sex with a superior. Of course, once he was the numero uno, he showed his power by continual conquests of his rival's consorts and wives. No wonder the Senate agreed collectively to end his reign the quick and dirty way.

 

[phrogpilot73]

"Normative?" Better look up how that applies in Ethics because you're implying that would be the Ethical standard of how things should be, not how they are or were. "Normal" behavioral practice? Perhaps, as Alexander and many Greeks went both ways in a social hieracrchy of behavior and it wasn't because women were unavailable. Often times they were relegated to prescribed roles (childbearing or in case of social uppercrust, offered for marriage to achieve a political end). There are tales of Caesar rising to prominence by friendship of same sex with a superior. Of course, once he was the numero uno, he showed his power by continual conquests of his rival's consorts and wives. No wonder the Senate agreed collectively to end his reign the quick and dirty way.

Is there nothing you don't know, or are you just very good with Google??

 

[HeyJoe]

Is there nothing you don't know, or are you just very good with Google??

LOL. I was intrigued by Philosophy in College, but not enough to major in it so I took enough electives to be dangerous. I only recently learned of the sexual habits and adventures of the leading Greeks and Romans due to a History Channel Special a few months ago that was extremely well done. I only post when I have a relative understanding and since I've been an adult longer than most of the newbies have been alive, I've picked up a few things along the way.

Actually, that said, I'm damn impressed with the knowledge level of the majority of newbies (who use search that is). I showed up at Quantico with only my desire to be a Marine and fly knowing hardly anything at all. Prior to that, I took the test battery cold (there were no sources of gouge) and did the PFT the same way (but I was a conditioned Varsity cross country runner and on a Intramural Track Team at University of Maryland so i was in good shape). My only personal motivator was being an avid reader of aviation history and having read so many biographies, I knew others showed up at flight school with not much more than a bruing desire and made it through. So I always said to myself "if they made it, so can I". Sometimes I had to say that a few extra times when stuck at bottom of a mud bank during the Quigley Special at Camp Upshur during PLC, but someone else showed up and we cooperated to graduate...at least get up that slippery slope.

 

[The Chief]

.... Can I do this with any other change to policy I disagree with? "Oh the new BAH rules are so unfair--time to go!" .....

Not exactly what I meant. A sleeping compartment on the USS Frigate is far different from a barracks or a 6 man room on a Bird Farm. Folks, that are neither officers nor gentlemen stacked into racks with no privacy what so ever. The green house gas emitter sleeping on your right, just eight inches away, so close you sleep head to toe. You have another ?mitter 18 inches above you and another 18 inches below you. Less privacy than on a submarine, at least the boomers. My point was that anyone with a deep felt, sincere aversion to G-word morality should not be put into such a situation with absolutely no recourse. Not unlike the Navy deciding that male/females will share the same compartment, showers, head et al. Should such a decision be made, alternatives should be available to those thrust into the situation. Just my .02C worth

 

[Belle]

My third thought (I forgot I only was allowed two). The TV pundits/activists all seem to use the same argument for changing DADT, that is; we are losing so many Arabic linguists because of the policy. What is the real connection between G-word and Arabic speaking folks? Just wondered.

As a former linguist, I think the reason that many people told without being asked is because you go through a long, intense training process and the job is, well, boring. For as many people as I saw get out for being gay, most of them were self-identifiers. Two years in training status as an enlisted person pretty much sucks (living in the barracks mandatory unless you're married, curfews, inspections, field days, etc -- we lived under the same rules for training as any other A School, except ours was about 4 times the length of most other jobs in the military). A lot of people get six months into that, start finding out bits and pieces about what the job actually entails and then start thinking that ending their contracts at any cost is what's best for them. Claiming gay, or doing something gay to get caught is sort of like getting pregnant in order to get out, except with the bonus of not having a kid to take care of for the next 18+ years at the end of it. Of course all my experience is anecdotal, so grain of salt and all that. But I also knew a couple of linguists who actually were gay and didn't get booted because they wanted to stay in and do their jobs.

Add to that the fact that spotlighting Arabic linguists as getting booted makes a good story on the nightly news (oh my gosh how could they kick ARABIC LINGUISTS OUT?!), and you're left thinking that it is a huge problem or some kind of epidemic in the career field.

 

[HeyJoe]

\ A lot of people get six months into that, start finding out bits and pieces about what the job actually entails and then start thinking that ending their contracts at any cost is what's best for them. Claiming gay, or doing something gay to get caught is sort of like getting pregnant in order to get out, except with the bonus of not having a kid to take care of for the next 18+ years at the end of it. Of course all my experience is anecdotal, so grain of salt and all that. But I also knew a couple of linguists who actually were gay and didn't get booted because they wanted to stay in and do their jobs.

The policy actually addresses and attempts to close that loophole (ie service can elect to keep you anyway if they think you're gaming the system).

 

[eddie]

"Normative?" Better look up how that applies in Ethics because you're implying that would be the Ethical standard of how things should be, not how they are or were. "Normal" behavioral practice? Perhaps, as Alexander and many Greeks went both ways in a social hieracrchy of behavior and it wasn't because women were unavailable. Often times they were relegated to prescribed roles (childbearing or in case of social uppercrust, offered for marriage to achieve a political end). There are tales of Caesar rising to prominence by friendship of same sex with a superior. Of course, once he was the numero uno, he showed his power by continual conquests of his rival's consorts and wives. No wonder the Senate agreed collectively to end his reign the quick and dirty way.

Wow. It's the unknown unknowns that kill us; learn things every day.

How about: it was the norm? "Unavailable" was meant more like, "not an option for some reason," not as in the future of Chinese demographics.

 

[HH-60H]

I only post when I have a relative understanding

But this is the internet....