DoS Employees Have it Pretty Tough

[gaijin6423]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/23/AR2007052301344.html?sub=new

God forbid that the State Department employees don't receive their fresh fruit, bottled water, and morning yogurt. Did I miss something? Isn't Iraq a combat zone? I realize that a lot of State types don't necessarily sign on for getting shot at, but it's a 'hardship post'. As Brett said a couple days ago, "...Sack up..." Perhaps if they spent less time sucking down chow, and more time being diplomats, they might be able to get something accomplished on their end?

 

[KBayDog]

^Don't you have some pilots to talk at this morning?

 

[gaijin6423]

Nope, not today. Today, I'm neck-deep in the hot, steaming shitpile that is DTS. Later, I'll be kicking 3 people out of the Marine Corps, which is a whole other stinking pile unto itself. Fun stuff.

(It's not like you guys actually listen to what I have to say, anyway. Who cares if you're about to fly into a hot NGF impact area, right?)

 

[KBayDog]

I'm sorry, did you say something?

Have a most wonderful Thursday...

 

[phrogpilot73]

Did DASC say something that didn't require me to plot a 10 digit grid coordinate for a fire mission that ended after I crossed the GTL while trying to figure out where the hell he was referring to??

Just a small bit of advice - in theatre, we generally know where the gun positions are, even have them plotted on our map. When a fire mission comes up - give us a direction and distance from the gun position so we can figure out a quick GTL. THEN give us a SIX digit grid!

 

[usmarinemike]

Did DASC say something that didn't require me to plot a 10 digit grid coordinate for a fire mission that ended after I crossed the GTL while trying to figure out where the hell he was referring to??

Just a small bit of advice - in theatre, we generally know where the gun positions are, even have them plotted on our map. When a fire mission comes up - give us a direction and distance from the gun position so we can figure out a quick GTL. THEN give us a SIX digit grid!

The way DASC sees it, as long as the pilots follow their routing then they don't even need to know of hot GTL's unless its very near the same target you're running on (i.e. marking your target)...But in the debriefs, pilots bitch about not finding out about GTLs until they were back on the ground. That's why when you check in they give you 300 different 10 digit grid points. Take it or leave it. They sometimes have to pump the FSCs pretty hard to get that stuff to keep the airspace safe.

Your second comment is very useful, but there's a problem with it:

If the DASC says A btry is firing and impacting 10 clicks NE, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where A btry is and to direct counter battery fire. Alpha battery is done for and its the wing's fault.

The reason the rest of your comment is very useful is because that's the kind of thing that needs to be SERIOUSLY pointed out at places like CAX and WTI debriefs so the operations and C2 doctrines can be matched up practically, but that dialogue is usually either relatively useless or nonexistent because each side likes to work inside their own box.


(Threadjack, btw...sorry)

 

[phrogpilot73]

If the DASC says A btry is firing and impacting 10 clicks NE, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where A btry is and to direct counter battery fire. Alpha battery is done for and its the wing's fault.

The reason the rest of your comment is very useful is because that's the kind of thing that needs to be SERIOUSLY pointed out at places like CAX and WTI debriefs so the operations and C2 doctrines can be matched up practically, but that dialogue is usually either relatively useless or nonexistent because each side likes to work inside their own box.

I think you missed me saying "in theatre". Direction and distance from a gun position should only go out on a secure net - which is what's being used in theatre. I would NEVER advocate passing that kind of information in the clear, for exactly the reason you suggest.

Here would be my proposal:
1. Secure net - "XX Guns, illumination/fire mission impacting 12km NW, grid 123456." I know where XX Guns is located, out comes my map and before you can finish reading the grid, I've got a rough GTL and where it is in respect to my flight path. DASC can't reasonably route me around every pop up fire mission when using spider routes, unless mandatory reporting at every point along the way.

2. Clear net - "XX Guns, illumination/fire mission impacting 123456"

Either way, 6 digit grids are the way to go - a concept that seemed to be completely lost on the DASCateers last time I was there - and we brought it up NUMEROUS times during WTI/DT/Deployment.

 

[gaijin6423]

I don't think that I've ever passed the (supposed) impact of a GTL with anything longer than a 6-digit grid. If you heard someone pass it, it sure as hell wasn't me, because that's just too much information. Then again, I have a different perspective from many DASC controllers, thanks to some time in the pilot pipeline. I've already had to defend my choices of what to pass/not pass over the net, and people tend to see it more my way. Or maybe they just say that to shut me up...

 

[usmarinemike]

I think you missed me saying "in theatre". Direction and distance from a gun position should only go out on a secure net - which is what's being used in theatre. I would NEVER advocate passing that kind of information in the clear, for exactly the reason you suggest.

Here would be my proposal:
1. Secure net - "XX Guns, illumination/fire mission impacting 12km NW, grid 123456." I know where XX Guns is located, out comes my map and before you can finish reading the grid, I've got a rough GTL and where it is in respect to my flight path.

Yeah, on a green net is okay...good save.

DASC can't reasonably route me around every pop up fire mission when using spider routes, unless mandatory reporting at every point along the way.

You wanna see one pissed off Lt, you cut off the routing in a way that happens to take you over the DASCs pos, and then not be on the net when he asks you what the hell you're doing! I think it's an ego thing (but don't tell gaijin that).

Either way, 6 digit grids are the way to go - a concept that seemed to be completely lost on the DASCateers last time I was there - and we brought it up NUMEROUS times during WTI/DT/Deployment.

Like I said, some people like to work inside their own boxes. Some know it all was probably telling the controllers to disregard and go by what's exactly in the pubs. Shameful. I would imagine they'd be more receptive and pragmatic in theatre when they don't have a coyote or wti breathing down their necks. And make sure you always refer to them as DASCateers to their faces...That'll really make them want to cooperate.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I don't think that I've ever passed the (supposed) impact of a GTL with anything longer than a 6-digit grid. If you heard someone pass it, it sure as hell wasn't me, because that's just too much information. Then again, I have a different perspective from many DASC controllers, thanks to some time in the pilot pipeline. I've already had to defend my choices of what to pass/not pass over the net, and people tend to see it more my way. Or maybe they just say that to shut me up...

Glad to see that you're defending your use of common sense. I can't count the number of nights I was in Iraq and I heard the following transmission from DASC (please note that it is ONE transmission) "XX Guns, illumination mission impacting AB 1234567890, Battery One, Max Ord 6000... End of mission."
By the time I plotted AB 1234567890 on my map and looked in respect to XX Guns, I realized that I had crossed the GTL during the fire mission. Big sky, little bullet - I was lucky.

 

[hscs]

It could be worse -- you could have the Army run the show and have them shut down every zone that you are flying through, 10 seconds after you told them your routing....

 

[phrogpilot73]

It could be worse -- you could have the Army run the show and have them shut down every zone that you are flying through, 10 seconds after you told them your routing....

Been there, done that. It didn't happen as often as my gripe with DASC though. And NOTHING sounds better at 2 am than the sultry sounds of the Baghdad Radio chick...

"Jailbird 45, cleared to switch have a WONDERFUL evening!"

 

[gaijin6423]

Big Sky; Little Bullet is the WORST assumption to make, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, it's probably a pretty long shot that an aircraft is actually going to take an IDF round mid-flight, but I sure as hell wouldn't take the chance or want someone else taking the chance with me in the back. We (DASC controllers) want to push as much information as possible to pilots, so that we can keep you out of harm's way and so that you're willing to push IFREP stuff back to us. (At least, that's my philosophy.) But some people don't realize that too much/detailed information can actually degrade an aircrew's SA. Combine that with the urgency of something like a counterfire, and you're pushing for confusion at best and potentially something far worse.

How did this turn into a DASC/aviator conversation.

 

[Semper Jump Jet]

Here's all I need to know from the DASC: Is the controller as hot as she sounds? Should be some comm brevity for that, no?

 

[phrogpilot73]

Big Sky; Little Bullet is the WORST assumption to make, as far as I'm concerned. How did this turn into a DASC/aviator conversation.

OK, I guess I didn't word it well - I didn't mean that's the assumption I ever made. I meant it was the hindsight - "it's a big sky and thank god that was a little bullet." I NEVER make that assumption, 'cause it'll get you killed. I agree that too much info is just as SA draining as not enough. There's a happy medium - and as a guy who's got some flight time behind him, you understand that.

This turned into a DASC/aviator conversation because we all KNEW that anyone stationed at the embassy, being written about by the Washington Post, is bound to be a pansy.

Here's all I need to know from the DASC: Is the controller as hot as she sounds? Should be some comm brevity for that, no?

Well after seeing a photo when I was deployed to Iraq, and doing the FSCC/DASC stuff alot on the hill, the answer is that she is MUCH hotter on the radio. Especially at 2 am. Just have an image of her in your mind, and never seek out proof one way or the other, or else you will be disappointed. Trust me.