Energy Discussion

[Hair Warrior]

This is thread drift, but I've always thought its a shame to just burn that stuff for energy. Better to use renewables to help convert it into something useful and lasting. Kind of like using wood as a construction material instead of a fuel.

The person who figures out something economically useful to do with coal, other than burning it, will never go hungry.

Something to note, in the history of energy production: During the “big oil” era of Standard Oil (Rockefeller) kerosene production, they used to burn off a useless byproduct called gasoline. During the era of crude oil (for gasoline) production they would - and sometimes still do - burn off (or let escape) a useless byproduct called natural gas, which wasn’t valuable because it wasn’t liquid and capture/storage was an issue. I think we precisely want to burn certain petrochemicals for energy. The issue is doing it in the most efficient manner possible, so that formerly-useless energy products become more useful and efficient.

Also, there is a particular hand-waving about geography. Many countries don’t have much of a choice when it comes to energy resources. The earth’s crust layers are not homogenous. Some countries have limited choices on energy types. Heck, that’s why Brent crude and WTI crude are so different that they trade at different prices. Arbitrarily limiting one type in favor of another type isn’t always practical or realpolitik. North America is fortunate that we have a huge variety of energy types available to us… but when we get into renewables, the “electric car for all US garages” argument rapidly meets hard realities of rare earth element mining and refining limitations.

 

[Hair Warrior]

California asks residents not to charge electric vehicles, days after announcing gas car ban

CALIFORNIA (WTVO) — With California’s power grid under strain due to extreme heat and high demand, the utility grid operator is asking residents to avoid charging their electric vehicles. Thi…

www.mystateline.com

California tells residents not to charge electric cars, keep thermostat set at 78° F.

And they wonder why people are moving out of state.

 

[number9]

California asks residents not to charge electric vehicles, days after announcing gas car ban

CALIFORNIA (WTVO) — With California’s power grid under strain due to extreme heat and high demand, the utility grid operator is asking residents to avoid charging their electric vehicles. Thi…

www.mystateline.com

California tells residents not to charge electric cars, keep thermostat set at 78° F.

And they wonder why people are moving out of state.

Hopefully they are going somewhere devoid of regulations, like maybe Texas! I bet they have it figured out! Where the utility grid has issues when *checks notes* it's really hot, as well as issues when *checks notes again* it's really cold.

 

[Brett327]

California asks residents not to charge electric vehicles, days after announcing gas car ban

CALIFORNIA (WTVO) — With California’s power grid under strain due to extreme heat and high demand, the utility grid operator is asking residents to avoid charging their electric vehicles. Thi…

www.mystateline.com

California tells residents not to charge electric cars, keep thermostat set at 78° F.

And they wonder why people are moving out of state.

The idea that someone would go through the hassle of moving because of what amounts to a stated best practice from the state provides us great insight into the inner workings of your brain.

 

[taxi1]

I think we precisely want to burn certain petrochemicals for energy. The issue is doing it in the most efficient manner possible, so that formerly-useless energy products become more useful and efficient.

If we can grab the energy without generating greenhouse gases, that's great. But I don't think we can.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Hopefully they are going somewhere devoid of regulations, like maybe Texas! I bet they have it figured out! Where the utility grid has issues when *checks notes* it's really hot, as well as issues when *checks notes again* it's really cold.

HW brings up an interesting question. California has roughly 600,000 electric cars out of 30,000,000 vehicles - and are asking people not to charge cars to help the grid. As California wants to rid itself of fossil fuel plants and decommission nuclear plants while vastly increasing electric cars, heat pumps and ranges - where is the 24/7 power going to come from? If you have any data, I would be interested in seeing the numbers.

Late edit: Looks like Diablo Canyon is going to extend until 2030.

 

[Hair Warrior]

The idea that someone would go through the hassle of moving because of what amounts to a stated best practice from the state provides us great insight into the inner workings of your brain.

Remind me again where you got your medical degree from?

No dude. People move when a state can’t keep the lights on, while also lecturing its own residents for keeping the AC below 78° F in the summer. People don’t like to be lectured or shamed for taking basic care of theIr families. I realize you don’t have a family and it’s hard for you to imagine the scenario, but put yourself in the shoes of a dad whose baby can’t fall asleep at night because it’s too hot in the room, and whose wife just lost all her pumped breastmilk in the fridge because the power cut out in the middle of the night. That young mother would be looking for any way to avoid it happening again. Especially with a baby formula shortage. Kind of hard to run a loud diesel/gas generator if you risk being called out by your neighbors for that, too.

Here’s another thought for you, since you seem to know everything: If California is so well-populated right now that its energy grid cannot support all residents, wouldn’t California prefer some people to leave the state, to bring some balance to its energy supply and demand? You act like people considering leaving California is a personal affront to your beliefs. Maybe the California state energy office wants people to leave. We can’t assume that California even wants to keep more residents right now - that’s an unproven assumption.

 

[Brett327]

You act like people considering leaving California is a personal affront to your beliefs.

Where Californians may or may not choose to live has zero impact on me or any aspect of my life. I use this example, which you yourself brought up, merely as insight into your thinking, which I find increasingly fascinating.

 

[Hair Warrior]

Where Californians may or may not choose to live has zero impact on me or any aspect of my life. I use this example, which you yourself brought up, merely as insight into your thinking, which I find increasingly fascinating.

How would you suggest parents with young kids, or people with plug-in electric medical devices at home, account for life a US state at risk of energy blackouts or brownouts?

 

[Brett327]

How would you suggest parents with young kids, or people with plug-in electric medical devices at home, account for life a US state at risk of energy blackouts or brownouts?

I don’t know, but you could probably ask someone who lives in Texas as about that.

 

[wink]

The idea that someone would go through the hassle of moving because of what amounts to a stated best practice from the state provides us great insight into the inner workings of your brain.

The migration of people from California to my state, does have an impact on me. So I wish the move, for any reason, from CA into my state were minimized. But that is for another discussion. What I find interesting, is that it appears you believe an unacceptable or even untenable condition is magically made acceptable or unworthy of attention simply because best practices are used in response to it. If Minneapolis uses best practices for municipal snow removal, it doesn't matter if you are tired of salt rotting out your car, or shoveling off your driveway and sidewalk. You might just be motivated to move to Florida. If Miami uses best practices for emergency management of hurricanes, and you are tired of the disruption hurricanes bring to your life, you might want to move to Minneapolis. If what is left after best practices is unacceptable, and you can't change the condition since best practices would amount to all that can be done about it, then removing yourself from that condition is the logical response. Everyone's tolerance level will be different.

 

[Brett327]

What I find interesting, is that it appears you believe an unacceptable or even untenable condition is magically made acceptable or unworthy of attention simply because best practices are used in response to it. If

What are you referring to, exactly?

migration of people from California to my state,

People have been moving from CA to adjacent states, to the great chagrin of local residents since the 70s. Blitz Weinhard had an entire advertising campaign centered on that theme in the early 80s. The point being, this isn’t a particularly novel phenomenon. Nor is the accompanying xenophobia, which I find ugly, and unamerican.

 

[taxi1]

How would you suggest parents with young kids, or people with plug-in electric medical devices at home, account for life a US state at risk of energy blackouts or brownouts?

I live in PA, couple houses down neighbor has a child who requires 24/7 ventilation, so of course they have a backup generator installed.

Same as if we lived in blizzard, hurricane, wildfire, or earthquake country.

 

[sevenhelmet]

If what is left after best practices is unacceptable, and you can't change the condition since best practices would amount to all that can be done about it, then removing yourself from that condition is the logical response. Everyone's tolerance level will be different.

The difference with the problems in CA is they could make things better with some long-term planning, and- at least when I lived out there- it feels as if there is insurmountable resistance to doing so. They could choose to produce more electricity in-state. They could choose to better shore up their reservoirs and water storage against the next "100 year event", which experience has shown will happen again next year. They could institute more forest management to reduce (albeit not eliminate) wildfire risk. But it always happens that suddenly there's no water, no power, the state is burning down, and ZOMG it's all humanity's fault because of global climate change, so shame on all of us!

I imagine running any state is incredibly hard, probably even more so in a populous and politicized place like California. I also understand that CA is hardly the only place with these problems. But showing a sustained commitment to making a sustainable infrastructure for your residents shouldn't be such a hard sell. In my observation, a lot of these factors could be forecast and mitigated ahead of time, and for whatever reason, they aren't.

 

[Randy Daytona]

You heard? That's....specific.

An advantage of renewables is you don't have to worry about about paying for the source unlike fossil fuels which have their own price swings due to war, corruption, politics and enforced scarcity among others.

A disadvantage of renewables is that they require very substantial amounts of rare earth metals from countries such as the DRC and Russia which are then processed in and purchased from China - seems to be a vulnerable supply chain in contrast to domestic natural gas and coal.

A second disadvantage is that these sources of power are both intermittent and seldom co-located near their end user.

A third disadvantage is that since these sources are intermittent, you still have the expense of building a gas power plant for backup to provide 24/7 power.

A fourth difference is that a traditional power plant will require much less land than either solar or wind.

And as mentioned in the beginning, the upfront capital cost of a conventional plant appear to be substantially less. As interest rates climb, the upfront outlay that is financed becomes more expensive.

Not saying that renewables are unworkable on a large scale (there is also not sufficient storage) but it appears that only a few places have the combination of wind and solar and geographic proximity to take advantage. Ironically, Texas might be at the top of that list.