Europe under extreme duress

[Brett327]

Since our government was designed and built as a service agency - deliver the mail, guard the coasts, regulate how many rat turds are allowed in my burrito - I'm not distressed that a lot of the public doesn't know or care how it works, any more than they do how their UPS gets delivered or Whoppers get made.

I'm with you there, at least in theory. Where this becomes problematic is when the electorate is continually duped into buying into the latest set of campaign promises - no matter how outlandish. You would think that the same crowd that bought into and were subsequently disillusioned by Obama's litany of unfulfilled hope & change promises would be more leery of the next guy who comes along promising free education, free medical and all the other Bernie Sanders socialist utopia nonsense. Nope. The lemmings don't learn.

Same principle applies to Trump.

If the governed had the slightest inkling that what they're being promised has no chance in hell of ever being implemented, they'd be a lot less likely to buy into these unproductive populist movements. Bottom line - an uninformed electorate is just easier to lie to.

 

[Brett327]

how many rat turds are allowed in my burrito

I couldn't resist. I don't know how/why my mind catalogued this obscure piece of dialogue from a bad 70s sci-fi movie, but enjoy

 

[robav8r]

Bottom line - an uninformed electorate is just easier to lie to.

Why is it so hard for people to understand this concept? So many people need to read & understand this, like my mother in law !!! But I digress . . . .

 

[wink]

I have read a couple things/studies that indicate people don't believe anything a candidate promises. They expect they are all lies. The faithful, the informed vote ideology and philosophy. The majority simply vote personality and telegenics

 

[Recovering LSO]

^That is a fucking stupid data point to base an argument on.

Yep, and if it were being used as a "data point," you'd be right, but instead I think it's simply a piece of social commentary - one that is fairly insightful.

 

[Flash]

We get it. You think the UK is fucked because ignorant country bumpkins decided they preferred their own countrymen, including their politicians, setting national policy and spending their taxes. I gave you an anaology. It just doesn't suggest your dooms day scenario. I never said the Yugo and Czech breakup was the same. Can't. No nation has left the EU before. But countries have desolved, and reunited, forcing similar structural, policy and cultural problems. That makes them analogous. You can't change the English language.

No, but I do think the majority voted to exit without a full appreciation of the consequences. It turns out that the biggest advocates for exiting the EU also may have bitten off more than they can chew. I think some of the biggest advocates ought to own it at this point, welcome to 10 Downing Street Prime Minister Johnson!

The EU/EEC is/was far from perfect but the UK has been part of it for over 40 years and I think it is pretty obvious that no one has a clue what is going to happen next or how it will affect the UK. A lot of the 'disadvantages' like open borders didn't even affect the UK while the advantages like free trade will now 'cost' them a bit more. As a matter of fact the two most prominent European powers that aren't part of the EU, Norway and Switzerland, have to comply with open borders and other EU policies in order to get the free trade advantages.

The 'Brexit' isn't the end of the world I do think it will adversely affect the UK at leas tin the short term and quite possibly in the long term. For us we lose our greatest advocate in the largest trading bloc in the world and possibly get even less defense support from our most powerful ally. So even with all the bads of the EU I think all things considered they ought to have stayed in.

 

[Uncle Fester]

From the WaPo: An astute online comment has some wondering whether Brexit may ever happen

TL;DR: By handing off the responsibility for formally triggering Article 50 to his successor, Cameron effectively outmaneuvered the Brexit crowd. The more the implications of leaving the EU sink in, the more Britons seem to regret the vote. His successor - Boris Johnson or whomever - will then have to take responsibility for pulling the trigger in the face of sinking markets and people realizing this will mean a lot more than just standing in long passport control lines at DeGaulle.

 

[wink]

As a matter of fact the two most prominent European powers that aren't part of the EU, Norway and Switzerland, have to comply with open borders and other EU policies in order to get the free trade advantages.

So there is a mechanism for getting some advantage from the EU without full membership. If Norway and Switzerland can get trade breaks then why not the UK? I am reminded of the French and NATO during the cold war. BREXIT need not be an either or thing. The EU has serious flaws that never would have been addressed by such an undemocratic self-serving institution. The UK's move may result in a new paradigm. A hybrid relationship with the EU for Britain, and reformed EU for remaiming members.

I don't know where the open borders are with Switzerland. Drove between Germany and Switzerland last year and was stopped at the border by border police. Got a full blown secondary inspection of everything in the car and luggage. They only stopped when they dug up my law enforcement ID buried in my bag.

 

[Flash]

So there is a mechanism for getting some advantage from the EU without full membership. If Norway and Switzerland can get trade breaks then why not the UK? I am reminded of the French and NATO during the cold war. BREXIT need not be an either or thing. The EU has serious flaws that never would have been addressed by such an undemocratic self-serving institution. The UK's move may result in a new paradigm. A hybrid relationship with the EU for Britain, and reformed EU for remaiming members.

Part of the problem is body knows. Out of practicality, spite or just negotiation some trade barriers may rise again as a result of the Brexit. Industries that are in the UK may rethink their place there if some of those barriers are reinstated, Ford already said as much. Also they have no say in EU policy or regs, many of which affect both countries because of the size and proximity of their largest trading partners. That widget doesn't meet EU standards, tough luck trying to sell it there. Same thing with France and NATO, why do you think they eventually rejoined? They decided it was better to be a member and have a say.

While Norway has oil and Switzerland banking and precision manufacturing the UK has a much larger and more diverse economy that relies much more on free trade than the others. Any impediments will hurt it much worse.

I don't know where the open borders are with Switzerland. Drove between Germany and Switzerland last year and was stopped at the border by border police. Got a full blown secondary inspection of everything in the car and luggage. They only stopped when they dug up my law enforcement ID buried in my bag.

They are part of the Schengen Area, which is the open borders agreement. What you encountered were temporary measures instituted with the refugee crisis. Shouldn't you know that if you are arguing the point? They also had to agree to visa-free residency, one of the things that many Brtis complained about like Polish plumbers (no, not a joke).

 

[wink]

They are part of the Schengen Area, which is the open borders agreement. What you encountered were temporary measures instituted with the refugee crisis. Shouldn't you know that if you are arguing the point? They also had to agree to visa-free residency, one of the things that many Brtis complained about like Polish plumbers (no, not a joke).

I was being facetious. Regrettable left out a smiley. I do know the border status with the Swiss. Have also traveled by train between Zurich and Verona and, of course, there was no passport control or customs. The invasive highway border stop I experienced was not regarding immigration or refugees, but obviously, drugs, money, watches and jewels. They said so. Was also once one of the usual suspects during an Osterreich/German highway border crossing. Even EU members can put restrictions on borders for law enforcement purposes.

 

[Flash]

I was being facetious. Regrettable left out a smiley. I do know the border status with the Swiss. Have also traveled by train between Zurich and Verona and, of course, there was no passport control or customs. The invasive highway border stop I experienced was not regarding immigration or refugees, but obviously, drugs, money, watches and jewels. They said so. Was also once one of the usual suspects during an Osterreich/German highway border crossing. Even EU members can put restrictions on borders for law enforcement purposes.

Gotcha. After reading up a bit further, in order to keep the free trade part of the EU the UK probably has to sign up for a similar deal that Norway and Switzerland did, 'open borders'. Which is ironic because they and Ireland are the only EU members not part of, or obligated to be part of, Schengen. When they were part of the EU they were able to carve out that exception, now maybe not.

 

[wink]

Gotcha. After reading up a bit further, in order to keep the free trade part of the EU the UK probably has to sign up for a similar deal that Norway and Switzerland did, 'open borders'. Which is ironic because they and Ireland are the only EU members not part of, or obligated to be part of, Schengen. When they were part of the EU they were able to carve out that exception, now maybe not.

Ironic, of course, since it was immigration fears that were a part of the leave vote.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Very interesting title in Foreign Policy Magazine today.....

James Traub
It’s Time For The Elites To Rise Up Against The Ignorant Masses

http://foreignpolicy.com/author/james-traub/

He seems to foresee a political realignment as well.

 

[nittany03]

Very interesting title in Foreign Policy Magazine today.....

IMHO, much of the predicament the modern Left finds itself in regarding things like the Brexit and Trumpism is best explained in the immortal words of The Dude. "You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an asshole." And I say that as no fan of The Donald. If I see any emotion out of liberals and so-called "progressives" lately, it's disdain and utter contempt for the rubes that dare to disagree with them. Sheer, unadulterated arrogance. It's why the gun debate, for instance, is only partially about guns. It's also part of a Kulturkampf where every aspect of conservative or working-class values is to be branded as an expression of ignorance or moral deficiency which needs to be reformed. Which is a brand of bigotry that dares not speak its name when the other side is arguing things like "minorities can't be racists because they're oppressed." Rather than engage with the arguments against their position, much of the Left reflexively assumes that these arguments come from insecurities, mental deficiencies, and so on. If gun owners are just insecure people with anger issues and small penises, their opinions don't matter. If devoutly religious people don't want to bake a wedding cake, they're just slaves to a regressive fairy tale Mommy and Daddy told them, so their opinions don't matter. Honest patriotism is mocked as "'Murica!" You can't possibly have an opinion worth including in the discussion unless you make the right choices at Whole Foods.

This doesn't mean that all of the ideas of the modern Left are invalid, but they've been implemented in a way that is leaving broad swaths of society feeling pissed off, marginalized, and condescended to. And then when they vote in a manner that expresses that anger, they get told that they have no right to feel the way they feel, and that doing so is wrong. You think this is supposed to persuade people? Hell no, it's just going to piss them off even more.

 

[Brett327]

If I see any emotion out of liberals and so-called "progressives" lately, it's disdain and utter contempt for the rubes that dare to disagree with them. Sheer, unadulterated arrogance.

This is not something that's reserved for the left. It's a two way street that travels up and down both sides of the aisle. There are just as many mindless drones on the left who blindly follow the dogma of their political philosophy as there are on the right. Whether your particular side sees the other as uneducated God-fearing rubes, or godless socialists who hate America - what's the difference? Do you think that the hardcore right are any more willing to engage in thoughtful debate about their core issues like abortion or an absolutist interpretation of the 2nd amendment?

This doesn't mean that all of the ideas of the modern Left are invalid

How generous of you. You're engaging in the very same thing that you criticize the left for doing, aren't you?

The real question in all of this for me is this: There are a lot of stupid people with a platform and a following. When is it OK to tell them that their ideas are stupid?