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Europe under extreme duress

I think the debate over whether America's presence in Europe is worth it when our European allies could conceivably build up the capabilities to deter Russia begs another question: what happens in the long run when you provide Germany the incentive to become more militarized again. Is it no longer true that NATO exists to 'keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and Germany down'?
 
sevenhelmet said:
A cogent argument can even be made that Russia invading Crimea and Ukraine is the result of decades of US and allied focus in the Middle East, at the expense of eastern Europe.
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IMO, this happened not due to lack of paying attention but more because of weakness and stupidity on the part of the U.S. Putin detected weakness on the part of Obama (remember Obama tried appeasement of Putin early on). Putin saw the opportunity to take Crimea and took it (and Obama's response was very weak). Then with Biden, he saw Biden's mental state and also overestimated his own capabilities, underestimated the Ukrainians', and also may really have believed most Ukrainians would welcome his forces even.
 
Random8145 said:
IMO, this happened not due to lack of paying attention but more because of weakness and stupidity on the part of the U.S. Putin detected weakness on the part of Obama (remember Obama tried appeasement of Putin early on). Putin saw the opportunity to take Crimea and took it (and Obama's response was very weak). Then with Biden, he saw Biden's mental state and also overestimated his own capabilities, underestimated the Ukrainians', and also may really have believed most Ukrainians would welcome his forces even.
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You left out a couple of repubs from your presidential list.
 
taxi1 said:
You left out a couple of repubs from your presidential list.
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I wouldn't say Bush Jr. per se tried appeasement, he more just was foolish in thinking that by "looking into Putin's eyes" that the guy was trustworthy. Bush Sr. I don't know of really trying appeasement either. And Reagan most certainly didn't.
 
Random8145 said:
My understanding is Japan has never formally acknowledged their war crimes from WWII either.
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Depends on what 'formally acknowledging their war crimes' means.

If it means officially telling various victimized individuals and countries on several dozen occasions that Japan was responsible for horrible things that happened to them during the war and that they are sorry for it, as well as paying reparations in some cases, then your understanding is wrong.

If it means the Japanese legislature passing law that declares Japan was responsible for its atrocities; itemizes what those atrocities were; investigates, tries, and punishes any surviving perpetrators; dismantles the Yasukuni shrine; reforms the education system to mandate instruction of Japanese youth about what Japan did; and requires the prime minister, his cabinet, the legislature, the entire imperial family, and JSDF chiefs of staff to prostrate and abase themselves before the world in humble apology... then your understanding is correct.
 
The idea that Germany will ignite nuclear war with France if we pull out, or Japan will ignite nuclear war against Russia, China, or the US... Is frankly absurd. And not just because it would be suicidal... The vast majority of modern Germans, I can say with absolute certainty from much experience, are absolutely ashamed of their history and would never support repeating it. I think this is less true in Japan, but I don't have the same experience to know. Either way, their constitution prevents them from having a military, and they have proven for a long time to be trustworthy allies. As have all our European partners, by the way.

Modern culture in the west and beyond is completely anti-expansionist wars, hence the response to Russian actions. That isn't going to change over night.
 
Mos said:
If it means the Japanese legislature passing law that declares Japan was responsible for its atrocities; itemizes what those atrocities were; investigates, tries, and punishes any surviving perpetrators; dismantles the Yasukuni shrine; reforms the education system to mandate instruction of Japanese youth about what Japan did; and requires the prime minister, his cabinet, the legislature, the entire imperial family, and JSDF chiefs of staff to prostrate and abase themselves before the world in humble apology... then your understanding is correct.
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If this ever happens, I'm going to have to run to the head, find a stall, and drop trou before the monkeys start flying out of my ass.
 
Random8145 said:
I wouldn't say Bush Jr. per se tried appeasement, he more just was foolish in thinking that by "looking into Putin's eyes" that the guy was trustworthy. Bush Sr. I don't know of really trying appeasement either. And Reagan most certainly didn't.
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I think he was also getting at Trump.....pre-GWB wouldn't make much sense from a timeline perspective
 
MIDNJAC said:
I think he was also getting at Trump.....pre-GWB wouldn't make much sense from a timeline perspective
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Yes, cripes, Trump slipped my mind so I forgot to mention him.

EDIT: So I had written a response on this but remember last time this started the mods requested we stop as Trump is a hot-button political topic. Suffice it to say, I think it is debatable that Trump was soft on Russia. Some say yes, some say no.
 
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Mirage said:
Modern culture in the west and beyond is completely anti-expansionist wars, hence the response to Russian actions. That isn't going to change over night.
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It doesn't have to change over night, nor would it. Such a state of affairs would likely take a decade at least to form. It's hard to imagine this hypothetical state when the conditions for it currently don't exist.
 
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