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Europe under extreme duress

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Vaguely speaking.... they're functional.
Gotcha.

I had an interesting conversation with a good friend of mine that does video production for government infrastructure contracts and regularly operates drones IVO of large airports (with authorization). He's started running into issues where despite having permission, he's getting intercepted by LE, or potentially having his drone hijacked...all via electronic means.

Obviously how well the PLA units work is the question, but personally I wouldn't be surprised if they were pretty effective, at least in close.
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
1. War sucks
No shit
At what point does Russia reach a threshhold where the regime feels threatened enough to resort to drastic measures
How often does everyone clutch pearls over their nuclear bluffs? As Joni Ernst explains, we're all going to die at some point.
Parts of Ukraine (e.g. Crimea) are so pro Russian
This is nothing but pure Russian disinfo...of course if you illegally occupy a territory and import citizens there...they'll be pro you. Do you take the Russian referenda in occupied territories at face value as well?

It's hard to see a few former officers on here dipping their toes into RUS apologia/appeasement...Russia can solve their long-term problems by withdrawing now. Reagan wouldn't have sent a clown like Steve Witkoff to negotiate with Putin...
 

sevenhelmet

Quaint ideas from yesteryear
pilot
How often does everyone clutch pearls over their nuclear bluffs? As Joni Ernst explains, we're all going to die at some point.

Wow, that was sure a lesson in punching down.

Despite the tone-deaf and unprofessional behavior by that Senator, it's probably good that people are being forced to realize that government does. not. care. about. you. Nor will it ever.

Not sure what it has to do with UKR/RUS though.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
1. War sucks. There is a hidden cost to Ukraine the more years this drags on. This isn’t like the US where we have an all-volunteer force; it’s going to be more like the male populations of France and England post WWI. And the rebuilding process is going to be a whole other ball of wax that I’m sure will be contentious. I feel for the Ukrainian people and don’t want them to be at war for longer than is necessary.

2. You correctly point out that we’ve done damage to Russia far beyond our wildest dreams. At what point does Russia reach a threshhold where the regime feels threatened enough to resort to drastic measures, such as CBRN weapons (including nukes, but not only nukes) to signal their displeasure with how the war’s going. If we are to believe the “Putin is in poor health” rumors, that is another wild card which makes the regime unpredictable.

3. Parts of Ukraine (e.g. Crimea) are so pro Russian now that Ukraine may think it’s worth some territorial concessions to allow Russia to save face while exiting the war with (some) dignity. We all say that appeasement is bad because look at what happened to Neville Chamberlain. Well, also look at what happened to the Weimar Republic after it was humiliated and crushed by the victors of WWI, economically, militarily, and socially. Can we really forecast who will take over (eventually) after Putin, and what they will behave like? (Hint: One of the reasons Putin acts how he acts is because Putin felt his country was badly humiliated during the fall of the Berlin Wall and the economic chaos of the 1990s that Putin perceives was caused by meddling from West-aligned insititutions like the IMF, which is well documented in biographies on Putin such as The New Tsar by Myers.) My point is, a Ukraine war outcome that utterly humiliates Putin and his successor(s) - while leaving them with 2k nuclear weapons and a badly bruised economy/military/ego - is not on my list of good ideas.

For the above reasons, I’m of the opinion that the US and NATO should help Ukraine and Russia find an offramp within the next year or so that is tolerable to both sides. Prolonging the fight because we like seeing Russia obliterated and Putin humiliated may have unintended long term consequences that are bad for Europe.

1) Wrong audience to lecture people on the costs of war.

2) Naïve to think that this scenario hasn't been war gamed out by the NCA and our intelligence agencies already. Inconvenient intelligence can still be accurate. I assume you aren't privy to those conversations.

3) The fall of the weimar republic and rise of the 3rd Reich had more to do the Great Depression and scape-goated communists than it did by US or western European foreign policy. Not close to a apples to apples comparison. Not to mention the access and distribution of information that was not accessible in that era. Russia has a significant but highly persecuted opposition that is largely in the shadows at this point.

We lived under the threat of a nuclear holocaust for almost 50 years, and all of the sudden we're going to cower to a Russian despot now? It would be the weakest shit I've ever seen done by a sitting president.
 

ChuckMK23

5 bullets veteran!
pilot
In development for us modelers...

GshmMGvW0AA1XkY
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
1) Wrong audience to lecture people on the costs of war.

2) Naïve to think that this scenario hasn't been war gamed out by the NCA and our intelligence agencies already. Inconvenient intelligence can still be accurate. I assume you aren't privy to those conversations.

3) The fall of the weimar republic and rise of the 3rd Reich had more to do the Great Depression and scape-goated communists than it did by US or western European foreign policy. Not close to a apples to apples comparison. Not to mention the access and distribution of information that was not accessible in that era. Russia has a significant but highly persecuted opposition that is largely in the shadows at this point.

We lived under the threat of a nuclear holocaust for almost 50 years, and all of the sudden we're going to cower to a Russian despot now? It would be the weakest shit I've ever seen done by a sitting president.
Nobody is arguing for cowering to Putin. Offramps =/= cowering.

How much longer would you suggest the war continue? How much would you like the US to donate/spend/lend to Ukraine?
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
Nobody is arguing for cowering to Putin. Offramps =/= cowering.

How much longer would you suggest the war continue? How much would you like the US to donate/spend/lend to Ukraine?

An "offramp" would be more damaging to European security and US foreign policy for the next several decades. It would be akin to setting up another Korean style MDL in Eastern Europe. Essentially dividing a country as a manipulative toy against us in our foreign policy structure and tie up extra resources in support of NATO in perpetuity. What vital national security prerogative is in jeopardy and dictate the need of an off ramp? It is not pragmatic or logical.

Outside of congressional write downs of aging munitions/equipment (i.e. things we paid for a LONG time ago) and relatively modest funding for modern capabilities - the bottom line has been relatively muted in terms of overall fiscal commitment. The level of lending or funding should be enough to enable decisive military action against Russian aggression, and matched by our European counterparts. Ukraine clearly wants all of Ukraine back, and we should support them to that end. I wouldn't expect us to negotiate for the territory of Florida in an existential conflict, nor would I insist another country do the same.
 

Faded Float Coat

Suck Less
pilot
Gotcha.

I had an interesting conversation with a good friend of mine that does video production for government infrastructure contracts and regularly operates drones IVO of large airports (with authorization). He's started running into issues where despite having permission, he's getting intercepted by LE, or potentially having his drone hijacked...all via electronic means.

Obviously how well the PLA units work is the question, but personally I wouldn't be surprised if they were pretty effective, at least in close.
Lots of blurred lines and unclear jurisdictions between FAA and local LEAs right now. Interestingly, another growth sector for C-UAS technologies is prison... Longterm inmates may have been dumb enough to get caught, but they're smart enough to figure out how to get contraband over the walls....
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Nobody is arguing for cowering to Putin. Offramps =/= cowering.

How much longer would you suggest the war continue? How much would you like the US to donate/spend/lend to Ukraine?
What off-ramps are you advocating for?

A very reasonable middle ground that has been pushed for (including this Administration) was just to freeze the conflict borders. That’s not good enough for Russia, they want to claim entire regions they don’t even occupy, and have dictated several other things to parties external to the conflict as well.

Like wanting all international sanctions on Russia lifted, recognition of Russian sovereignty of those territorial claims, and special right for “Russian speaking citizens” in Ukraine. Oh and full demilitarization of Ukraine. :rolleyes:

Russia is not seriously interested in finding terms to end this war. They are dictating terms to enable them to consolidate their gains, get more territory, and be better positioned to invade Ukraine again later. Pushing Ukraine to capitulate to Russia’s demands now would just be mind bogglingly stupid.

Putin should be desperate. He fucked up, and every month the war dragged on made pulling out harder. He has a choice between finding war termination conditions that everyone can agree to (and his people won’t hate too much) or letting this continue to grind his country even further into the shitter. Nukes and other WMD threats are not serious. His people, more specifically his ethnic Russian support base, aren’t willing to risk all dying for Ukraine. If they were; they’d have been dropping tactical nukes a long time ago.
 
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Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Lots of blurred lines and unclear jurisdictions between FAA and local LEAs right now.

Another part of the conversation we had.

Interestingly, another growth sector for C-UAS technologies is prison... Longterm inmates may have been dumb enough to get caught, but they're smart enough to figure out how to get contraband over the walls....

Indeed. Something I hear about when I chat with my usual passengers in my day job.
 
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