FAC Tour: The good and the bad

[Slingblade]

I just volunteered for a FAC tour, and will be reporting to TACP school in January of next year. I'm an Osprey guy, and am trying to get Pensacola orders on the backside. The monitor asked me how many Quals, I would have by the end of my tour. I wasn't sure how to answer. Would he want me to have fewer Quals, to send to Pensacola? Or more? Anyone have any thoughts?

You heading to EWTGPAC or EWTGLANT? If PAC I’ll see you in January. I’m the course chief for TACP school at EWTGPAC in Coronado. Was a prior IP at Pensacola too, couple of assignments ago. Here is why I believe the monitor is interested in your quals prior to going to flight school. He wants to ensure you have the ability to get back to the fleet once more senior. If you are very low qual prior to FAC tour he most likely wants to get you back to your MOS and squadron in order to continue to progress in your primary MOS as opposed to sending you to Pensacola where you do not progress in your MOS. At that point you are completing your flight school tour as maybe only a HAC (or whatever you guys call it in the V22) and you will have a tough time finding your way back into a squadron as a junior major or senior captain. The monitor is basically trying to ensure you have the opportunity to gain MOS credibility and remain competitive for promotion and career progression. Additionally the more qualifications and credibility you have in your platform will make you more valuable in flight school due to having more experience both in the airframe and in flight leadership. Not saying that you won’t be able to get flight school orders, but understand the potential career implications if you show up there without MOS credibility. You may be done flying The V22 operationally as getting back to the squadron as an O4 is a lot more competitive since there are fewer spots within the Squadron. Ideally you get your MOS credibility (NSI, Div lead) as an early to mid Captain. No later than senior Captain. You then go do something outside the MOS as a senior Captain/ junior Major then head back to fleet mid to senior Major knock out DH tour and remain competitive for O5. That’s my quick take on it. I could carry on the conversation much more detailed if you would like.

 

[SpankenStein]

You heading to EWTGPAC or EWTGLANT? If PAC I’ll see you in January. I’m the course chief for TACP school at EWTGPAC in Coronado. Was a prior IP at Pensacola too, couple of assignments ago. Here is why I believe the monitor is interested in your quals prior to going to flight school. He wants to ensure you have the ability to get back to the fleet once more senior. If you are very low qual prior to FAC tour he most likely wants to get you back to your MOS and squadron in order to continue to progress in your primary MOS as opposed to sending you to Pensacola where you do not progress in your MOS. At that point you are completing your flight school tour as maybe only a HAC (or whatever you guys call it in the V22) and you will have a tough time finding your way back into a squadron as a junior major or senior captain. The monitor is basically trying to ensure you have the opportunity to gain MOS credibility and remain competitive for promotion and career progression. Additionally the more qualifications and credibility you have in your platform will make you more valuable in flight school due to having more experience both in the airframe and in flight leadership. Not saying that you won’t be able to get flight school orders, but understand the potential career implications if you show up there without MOS credibility. You may be done flying The V22 operationally as getting back to the squadron as an O4 is a lot more competitive since there are fewer spots within the Squadron. Ideally you get your MOS credibility (NSI, Div lead) as an early to mid Captain. No later than senior Captain. You then go do something outside the MOS as a senior Captain/ junior Major then head back to fleet mid to senior Major knock out DH tour and remain competitive for O5. That’s my quick take on it. I could carry on the conversation much more detailed if you would like.

Sir,
I'm currently on my second deployment and am working through the division syllabus. I may not have enough time to acquire NSI. Hopefully 4 years, two deployments and acquiring div lead, could be considered MOS credible. Also, I saw earlier in the thread some one mention that after a FAC tour, you may be able to write you own ticket (orders). Have you seen that with other pilots in the past? And I'll be going to EWTGLANT.

 

[Slingblade]

Sir,
I'm currently on my second deployment and am working through the division syllabus. I may not have enough time to acquire NSI. Hopefully 4 years, two deployments and acquiring div lead, could be considered MOS credible. Also, I saw earlier in the thread some one mention that after a FAC tour, you may be able to write you own ticket (orders). Have you seen that with other pilots in the past?

Okay got you. Wasn’t sure how long you have been a captain or how much fleet time you had. I honestly think your timing should be pretty good. NSI is ideal but probably not a deal breaker for you. I don’t think there is ever a true thing where you can write your own ticket when dealing with the monitor. Haha. Definitely things you can do that help though. FAC tour is difdin which justifies going DIFOP on backside. Depending on location of FAC tour and if deploying or not. Basically burden sharing is the term monitors like to use. If you do those things monitor is more likely to help you out more to get your desired billet. Monitors have a lot of things to consider though when filling assignments.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Sir,
I'm currently on my second deployment and am working through the division syllabus. I may not have enough time to acquire NSI. Hopefully 4 years, two deployments and acquiring div lead, could be considered MOS credible. Also, I saw earlier in the thread some one mention that after a FAC tour, you may be able to write you own ticket (orders). Have you seen that with other pilots in the past? And I'll be going to EWTGLANT.

Following a FAC tour, you will receive flying orders. Unless you’re selected for resident EWS or you specifically lobby for a non-flying assignment.

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/MCO%201301.25C.pdf

 

[Hotdogs]

As an Osprey guy, unless something dramatically changes in the next couple years... Getting back to the fleet will be pretty easy. Flight School as an Osprey pilot is something probably rare nowadays given current 7532 manning issues. I have heard rumors of that changing. The seats in fleet squadrons will almost always take priority over flight school. Better to have quals and not need them, then to not have quals and need them to do something you want. (HMX, MAWTS, MATSS, VMX). Quals give you bargaining power more often than they work against you. If you plan on getting out, I would get them anyway, because it’s a hedge against things you can’t control. (Economy, Zombie Apocalypse, Iran wants to throw hands, AOC banning fossil fuels, etc). Same thing with just doing EWS.

 

[Hercz40]

Did someone say something about a Zombie apocalypse or economy collapse?

 

[nukon]

Did someone say something about a Zombie apocalypse or economy collapse?

Let the zombies come - still not convinced EWS is worth it. They just keep making it longer and longer.

 

[whitesoxnation]

Let the zombies come - still not convinced EWS is worth it. They just keep making it longer and longer.

I did 100% online EWS.

Worth it to get promoted? Probably.

Worth it to make you a better thinker or officer? Absolute waste of time when you don’t have any to waste.

 

[Hercz40]

I did 100% online EWS.

Worth it to get promoted? Probably.

Worth it to make you a better thinker or officer? Absolute waste of time when you don’t have any to waste.

Agreed. I'm in blended seminar right now. The final "resident period" is being conducted online through an online platform. Check in the box is all it seems to be. I'm on a FAC tour right now so there's a lot of time to waste since we are in limbo. Lets hope the RCLF garbage continues to be a can that gets kicked down the road rather than becoming a requirement.

 

[JTS11]

WRT FAC tours and flight school (caveat: my knowledges are 10 years old)

There was an effort to stop assigning the HAC to FAC with 500-600 hours to flight school. MATSGs weren't pleased that some of those dudes were bombing out of the HITU/FITU (probably for similar reasons they did the HAC to FAC thing). There was also an effort from some MAGs to stop sending guys on FAC tours that squadrons were trying to get rid of.

The going in position for the company grade monitor at that time for orders to flight school was that you had 1000 hours and Div Lead. Not a hard and fast rule, but the going in position.

@Treetop Flyer is spot on WRT to the FAC order. You are guaranteed DIFOP on the backside unless you specifically say no. If you're low hours/thin quals, you'll probably go back to the MAG to get more MOS credibility. The FAC tour length was designed to negate an FRS refresh requirement.

@Hotdogs also gives good gouge WRT assignments. Monitors have to fill their PMOS billets first (fleet units, FRS, VMX,etc), before filling 75xx or 8006 billets. So, it really depends on the inventories of the different aviation MOS's on how the assignment game rolls.

 

[Hercz40]

Monitors have to fill their PMOS billets first (fleet units, FRS, VMX,etc), before filling 75xx or 8006 billets. So, it really depends on the inventories of the different aviation MOS's on how the assignment game rolls.

From the road show brief this past fall, the priorities from the aviation side of the house WRT filling billets went 1) Fleet 2) Flight School 3) Fires 4)Everything else, in that order. Not sure where FRS and VMX fall into the mix.

As far as the guys getting FAC tours, it seems the mileage varies depending on who sources the billet (MAG PSD or Monitor sourced). MAG sourced billets usually get advertised in the squadron with little notice, possibly making them not desirable. XOs have to provide a name, and as long as they have the 24 months under their belt, they are fair game. Monitor sourced billets like ANGLICO, recon, 29 palms, etc seem to be filled with guys who request the job rather than voluntold.

 

[JTS11]

From the road show brief this past fall, the priorities from the aviation side of the house WRT filling billets went 1) Fleet 2) Flight School 3) Fires 4)Everything else, in that order. Not sure where FRS and VMX fall into the mix.

As far as the guys getting FAC tours, it seems the mileage varies depending on who sources the billet (MAG PSD or Monitor sourced). MAG sourced billets usually get advertised in the squadron with little notice, possibly making them not desirable. XOs have to provide a name, and as long as they have the 24 months under their belt, they are fair game. Monitor sourced billets like ANGLICO, recon, 29 palms, etc seem to be filled with guys who request the job rather than voluntold.

You are correct. Also, there are nuances between how FW and RW/TR FAC tours are assigned based on 3 vs 4 year initial tour orders. Also, most battalion FAC tours are sourced internally to the MEF. Because Yuma and Beaufort aren't co-located with infantry battalions, and 29 Palms is a weird bird, it affects the type of orders that get written (PCS vs PCA).

My perspective is from the RW side, so I'll defer to FW dudes on how FAC tours are managed from their side.

WRT to PMOS billets, those have to be filled first. After school boards, HMX, MAWTS take their cut (and promotion boards decide who gets a P), the monitors have to assess what's left over and fill the fleet and FRS's with appropriately qualified dudes.

 

[Hotdogs]

There was an effort to stop assigning the HAC to FAC with 500-600 hours to flight school. MATSGs weren't pleased that some of those dudes were bombing out of the HITU/FITU (probably for similar reasons they did the HAC to FAC thing). There was also an effort from some MAGs to stop sending guys on FAC tours that squadrons were trying to get rid of.

The going in position for the company grade monitor at that time for orders to flight school was that you had 1000 hours and Div Lead. Not a hard and fast rule, but the going in position.

Probably wouldn’t have an issue getting qualified dudes there if it weren’t such a career killing move.

 

[JTS11]

Probably wouldn’t have an issue getting qualified dudes there if it weren’t such a career killing move.

Like anything, it's a matter of timing. I've seen plenty of dudes leave flight school as a junior Major, knock out a DIFDEN B-Billet, then get to the fleet in time for a DH billet and make O-5 and/or command.

But, your point stands. It's definitely not the traditional path.

 

[Hotdogs]

Like anything, it's a matter of timing. I've seen plenty of dudes leave flight school as a junior Major, knock out a DIFDEN B-Billet, then get to the fleet in time for a DH billet and make O-5 and/or command.

But, your point stands. It's definitely not the traditional path.

The notion that they can just pull the amount of dudes they’ll need to source MATSG billets with 1,000 hours and Div lead or equivalent TMS qual is a bit optimistic. The amount of pilots to fill billets that actually need to use those qualifications (MAWTS, VMX, TPS, HMX, FRS) is greater than the number they’ll have available. You could make argument that HMX and TPS should not need/care about qualifications or hours. However, we all know that will never make it anywhere once an 0-6 and associated alumni cry about not being a career enhancing command. HMX is the single biggest waste of manpower and talent in Marine Aviation. The Marines would rather staff HMX at 100% then staff and properly train/man deploying combat units for GFM requirements.

This is not going to change anytime soon. If you bomb out of the FITU/HITU those pilots should be sent back to ground tours that fill required staffing goals by the monitor. It should also be a trigger for adverse material. 1 out of around 15 dudes on last years board picked up 0-4 at both MATSGs. I know of exactly 1 CO who picked up operational command with a gig at MATSG. It is probably more common in the shitter and Osprey community.

Manpower management in the Marine Corps is a mess and they’re mostly self inflicted wounds. That is nothing against the dudes at MMOA. Most of them are doing their best with a shit sandwich continually handed down to them. It would also be nice if they stopped looking at spreadsheets, inventories, and line numbers and looked at the massive cultural issues that causes pilots to get out.