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FedEx Cargo Plane Crashes at Tokyo Airport

A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
jorgelito said:
Does this come down to the ATCs then? I would expect that type of recklessness from the Chinese for sure but I always thought the Japs were more conservative and reliable. Seems kind of risky.
Click to expand...

It comes down to "mindset". Training ... experience ... tradition, in some instances ...

They are both very capable people and great hosts -- and fearsome enemies -- but they tend to be inflexible. I've worked "hands-on" w/ both ATC systems in the air AND on the ground over the years -- they have good people (not as good as 15+ years ago) & good equipment (especially the equipment the ChiComs were buying in the early days -- funny thing; none of their top shelf gear would interface as it was made in different countries and purchased from different vendors :)). :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

But when it comes to airport ops -- when they get something in their head -- you have a tough time changing their mind. They don't bob & weave too well and are NOT very flexible -- even when confronted w/ the obvious of changing situations. So when the WX goes to shit -- perhaps as in this crash -- they are loathe to "change" and possibly shut down airline ops for a while to let the dust settle.

So then we have a crash ??? I don't know; wasn't there THAT day ...

But for the sake of example to demonstrate systemic "inflexibility" w/ NRT ATC: I've had to break off the departure corridor to "dodge" what would have been very severe WX on my own -- I TOLD them what I was doing (and did it) after learning that it took NRT ATC 2-3 minutes (that I didn't have) to arrive at a decision. Departures were going on and it was business as usual -- until I made my move -- they shut down departures immediately behind me. My Amigos & I usually managed to make it all "work", but you have to be proactive and cover your OWN "6" when flying the Orient. Or South America ... or the Middle East .... or Africa ... or ... or ... anywhere ??? :)

Another one: every early, early arrival I made to NRT (for 25 years) we'd request a "visual approach to runway X or Y" when the WX permitted and traffic was not a factor (traffic was NEVER a factor on the Dawn Patrol arrivals :)).

On CAVU days and when we "owned" the pattern -- the answer from the Tower was always the same: "Ahhhhh .... unable".

When queried as to "why not?" ... the answer was always the same: "Ahhhhh ... not procedure". So we'd fly the full IFR approach -- CAVU -- and waste fuel & time. We'd keep asking -- for 25 years -- just to mess w/ their minds. :)

There's a LOT more -- believe it -- these are just two small examples of operational inflexibility in the Far East ATC system.
 
Junkball

Junkball

"I believe in ammunition"
pilot
Divine Wind

jorgelito said:
Does this come down to the ATCs then? I would expect that type of recklessness from the Chinese for sure but I always thought the Japs were more conservative and reliable. Seems kind of risky.
Click to expand...

Lets not forget our history here:

Conservative...
kamikaze_zero.jpg


and reliable! (not very risky though).
 
jorgelito

jorgelito

PRO-REC INTEL
A4sForever said:
It comes down to "mindset". Training ... experience ... tradition, in some instances ...

They are both very capable people and great hosts -- and fearsome enemies -- but they tend to be inflexible. I've worked "hands-on" w/ both ATC systems in the air AND on the ground over the years -- they have good people (not as good as 15+ years ago) & good equipment (especially the equipment the ChiComs were buying in the early days -- funny thing; none of their top shelf gear would interface as it was made in different countries and purchased from different vendors :)). :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

But when it comes to airport ops -- when they get something in their head -- you have a tough time changing their mind. They don't bob & weave too well and are NOT very flexible -- even when confronted w/ the obvious of changing situations. So when the WX goes to shit -- perhaps as in this crash -- they are loathe to "change" and possibly shut down airline ops for a while to let the dust settle.

So then we have a crash ??? I don't know; wasn't there THAT day ...

But for the sake of example to demonstrate systemic "inflexibility" w/ NRT ATC: I've had to break off the departure corridor to "dodge" what would have been very severe WX on my own -- I TOLD them what I was doing (and did it) after learning that it took NRT ATC 2-3 minutes (that I didn't have) to arrive at a decision. Departures were going on and it was business as usual -- until I made my move -- they shut down departures immediately behind me. My Amigos & I usually managed to make it all "work", but you have to be proactive and cover your OWN "6" when flying the Orient. Or South America ... or the Middle East .... or Africa ... or ... or ... anywhere ??? :)

Another one: every early, early arrival I made to NRT (for 25 years) we'd request a "visual approach to runway X or Y" when the WX permitted and traffic was not a factor (traffic was NEVER a factor on the Dawn Patrol arrivals :)).

On CAVU days and when we "owned" the pattern -- the answer from the Tower was always the same: "Ahhhhh .... unable".

When queried as to "why not?" ... the answer was always the same: "Ahhhhh ... not procedure". So we'd fly the full IFR approach -- CAVU -- and waste fuel & time. We'd keep asking -- for 25 years -- just to mess w/ their minds. :)

There's a LOT more -- believe it -- these are just two small examples of operational inflexibility in the Far East ATC system.
Click to expand...
Wow, thanks for the response, I appreciate the explanation. Yeah I've noticed the Japanese are kind of inflexible and don't seem to adapt well on the fly or think too creatively. Reminds me of the post office and DMV.

I didn't realize the ChiComs had so much advanced equipment, but I am always nervous traveling in their world: so much chaos and corner cutting (at least I have noticed).

Same with Taiwan, those guys are always having accidents from what appears to be human error, carelessness. Kind of shocking. I don't really get it.

Singapore has a good track record or at least they used to before that crash a few years back. Nice airport too. But I would imagine the Singies to be pretty anal.

Same with Hong Kong. I remember the ol' days flying into Kai Tak, banging a hard right and sharp descent right into the middle of the city. It's a miracle that accidents didn't happen more frequently (I think their safety record is pretty good). Their new airport is spectacular, I can only imagine they have great state-of-the-art equipment.

One of the scariest places to land for me is definitely Guatemala City if I remember correctly. We had to spiral down through a thick layer of clouds before landing abruptly. I think GC is high elevation and in a crater or something like that. In any case, it was kind of rough. Plus my seat was broken.
 
MAKE VAPES

MAKE VAPES

Uncle Pettibone
pilot
I was sitting in the Crew Chief seat on a C-9B on a 2P trainer in Huntsville on a perty windy, gusty day. P-3 dude in left seat, A-4 dude in right (IP). P-3 guy flares, touches a main wheel, but doesn't spin it up enough to pop up spoilers, throttles at idle.

Plane is in ground effect, P-3 dude has stopped flying the plane (its about 15-20 feet off the ground) and is looking at me like a dumb ass asking me why his landing sucked soooo bad. The nose is starting to drop (he thinks the mains are on deck, and the nose is coming to the deck).

Had the kung foo A-4 IP (Delta MD and 767 dude) not put the yoke in his lap we may have splattered all over Huntsville AL's runway much the same as this bird. Even with his quick reaction, I had to push my fillings back in.

Not speculating what happened, just looks similar.

RIP
 
ea6bflyr

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
To bring some learning points to this thread: What should have been the correct answer to landing in 25-35KTS of gusting wind? (2 scenarios: Direct HW & 30 degree crosswind)

Add more airspeed to the approach, >10kts? Divert?

Most TMS aircraft have a crosswind limit. So let say this was not the case.
-ea6bflyr ;)
 
e6bflyer

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
ea6bflyr said:
To bring some learning points to this thread: What should have been the correct answer to landing in 25-35KTS of gusting wind? (2 scenarios: Direct HW & 30 degree crosswind)

Add more airspeed to the approach, >10kts? Divert?

Most TMS aircraft have a crosswind limit. So let say this was not the case.
-ea6bflyr ;)
Click to expand...

SOP in the E-6 was to add half the headwind and all of the gust up to 20kts. I always taught my onwings in the T-34 to add a few extra knots for mom and the kids when landing distance wasn't a factor.

From the armchair quarterback, it appears that they touched down and then skipped off the deck. The pilot at the controls probably thought they were on the deck and lowered the nosewheel, resulting in the dreaded porpoise. This, coupled with the extremely gusty and windy conditions, resulted in some overcontrolling of the wings and caused the wing to touch down resulting in the accident.

Again, I wasn't there, and I am sure it was a tough situation with possible LLWS, etc, but that is my first guess from the video.
 
FrankTheTank

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
add half the headwind and all of the gust up to 20kts
Click to expand...

We do the same... I don't think crosswinds were the problem, I think windshear and/or how the gusts changed were the problem..

The pilot at the controls probably thought they were on the deck and lowered the nosewheel, resulting in the dreaded porpoise.
Click to expand...

And I am gonna disagree with this one.. These aren't newbies.. They have lots of time flyin heavy iron.. I don't know if it some MD-11 design issues, straight up weather, or what.. But I will wait for the NTSB before I throw rocks at my fellow aviators.. They may have not properly executed a 'bounce recovery' but I don't think for one second that he thought he was on deck..

Also BTW It was a bit after 6 AM so backside of the clock/fatigue could be a factor and (I don't know this to be 100% true but I am told by some ANC bros) that he had been out on Medical 7-9 months and this was his first trip after requal so currency could be an issue...

I don't know but I will let the experts decide...

My 2 cents.

A recap of the pilots return (from my bud w/his permission- Marine hornet gone Purple & Orange):
For those who couldn't be there last night: FedEx sent our brothers home with class and dignity.

Capt Mosley and FO Pino arrived on appropriately named Flight 80 at midnight last night in the pouring rain. At the gate were two platoons of FedEx pilots formed up on either side of the k-loader, a combined services color guard (2 AF, Navy, Marine), and a Marine Corps honors detail. First on-board behind customs were an active duty Marine Corps Major in dress blues and a FedEx Captain to ensure flags were properly draped over the containers, etc. Many FedEx "brass" were also in attendance under umbrellas in a gaggle nearby.

The remains came off the airplane one at a time in custom built wooden containers about the size of a coffin. Very somber moment as everbody stood at attention, colors were presented, the military detail was saluting along with the 'platoon' leaders for the pilots. They were brought to the corporate hangar. In the hangar were two business jets angled nose to nose much like you would see at an indoor military ceremony at a squadron. The ceremonial area was set up in a first class manner...more flowers than I have seen at any funeral, the appropriate service flags behind each flag draped container, a fedex pilot and corresponding service member standing at attention nearby. Carpeted path, guest books, etc...

Fred Smith was the first through the area to pay respects. It looked like it was hitting him hard. (His pilot also told me FS was taking it hard.) He took the time later to individually thank each military honor detail person there.

The soaking wet pilots who had been in formation were next.

Bus load after bus load of pilots from the AOC then starting pouring through for approx 2 hours, paying their respects.

We sent Capt Mosley home on the PDX outbound around 3am. At the same time, a hearse arrived to transport FO Pino to a funeral home awaiting his Thurs afternoon flight back to SAT. Although they were released earlier, the military honors detail insisted on staying so that they could stand at attention and salute as the remains left the hangar.
Click to expand...
 
e6bflyer

e6bflyer

Used to Care
pilot
Frank and others,
I don't want you to think that for one minute I was trying to second guess these guys. I consider myself fairly experienced, but I still don't have the mins to even sit in the FE chair for Fedex. I have no doubt that both of these pilots were the best of the best.
That being said, even very experienced guys are prone to making huge mistakes, especially when you throw the circadian fuck job of flying the back side of the clock in with challenging conditions. I have seen first hand that a skip off the deck (not a bounce) can sometimes be mistaken for a touchdown, followed by lowering the nosewheel to the deck. In my experience flying heavies, your height above the ground is not always that apparent, which is why the FE or cockpit computer calls out altitudes on final approach.
Again, just adding my two cents. Of course, I am very sad at the loss of any fellow aviator, and I am the last person to point fingers of blame. We should, however, strive to learn and apply the lessons of any aviation mishap, which is why we dissect them and talk about them.
Safe Flying.
 
FrankTheTank

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
I guess I was a bit much on the disagreement.. Our callouts are done off the RADALT.. In fact it is not uncommon to get a couple 1000 or 500 ft calls over uneven terrain during the approach.. I just don't think it was a skip but a bounce.. Our callouts "1000, 500, 100, 50 ,40 ,30, 20, 10," anything above 10 will get you the callout again.. I know, I have done it in the sim.. So I don't think they thought they were on deck.. I do agree that discussion is good and learning is key... My bud had recurrent this week and it went well over time to get a few different looks at windshear on T/O, APP, & LDGS... Makes you think standards knows something, or at least has an initial look???


Sorry for the long post..
 
chase580

chase580

New Member
I work for FedEx. Definitely a sad day for us and the rest of the aviation world to lose such fine pilots.
 
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