Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[A4sForever]

......In other words, do you believe there may be merges in the future?

You bet I do ..... if there's not any more merges in ACM ..... it will be the first time since Orville and Wilbur gave up bicycles for wings. Lessons learned and all that ....

And it probably depends to a large degree upon the ROE .... if you have to have a visual ID to shoot ... stand by for a close aboard, high speed "merge". If that happens --- I would want to have an AIM-9X SRM with a helmet mounted sighting (cueing?) system (AND a gun) for the initial hard turn. You need both short and medium range missiles .... and a gun. You want as many good cards in your hand as you can get.

Why would anyone with a survival instinct settle for anything less ???

 

[pilot_man]

Well said sir, and another thing is what happens when we start running low on all the bvr stuff? It'd be nice to have that 9x, hms, ect..

 

[HeyJoe]

Glossary

For the uninitiated, this glossary is provided so it doesn't look like we are talking in tongues:

AA-10 - NATO callsign and nomeclature for Soviet designed MRM (Russian nomeclature = R-27) carried on MiG-29 and Su-27 (can carry "long burn" variant)
AA-11 - NATO callsign and nomeclature for Soviet designed SRM with high off boresight capability (Russian nomeclature = R-73) carried on MiG-29 and Su-27
ACM - Air Combat Maneuvering (dogfighting, phonebooth, furball, etc.)
AEA - Airborne Electronic Attack
AIM-9X - Latest Sidewinder variant with extremely high off-boresight capability, advanced IRCCM/digital processing and autopilot, improved control surfaces and JVC
AIMVAL/ACEVAL - US JT&E conducted in late 70s with F-14 and F-15s pitted against F-5E Aggressors flown by USAF/USN pilots to evaluate tactics and missile concepts
Adversary/Aggressor - Navy/USAF term for aircraft dedicated to DACT role
AMRAAM - Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (US MRM replacing AIM-7 and AIM-54)
ASRAAM - Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (UK SRM with high off boresight seeker)
Bandit - radio call designating contact as hostile (see also Bogey)
Bingo - fuel state that requires return to base
BFM- Basic Fighter Maneuvers (hi/lo yo-yos, split S, lead/pure/pursuit, etc.)
Blower(s) - Afterburner(s)
Bogey - initial call for contacts not known as friendly or hostile
Bogey Dope - fighter call to AEW platform requesting update on contact
Bug/bugout - term used to describe leaving the fight (ie "time to bug")
Buster - call to proceed at MRT (ie hurry up)
BVR - Beyond Visual Range (outside WVR)
Clutter - heat or radar returns other than target that can obscure same
DACT - Dissimilar Air Combat Training (ACM against a "dissimilar" aircraft)
DASH - Israeli designed HMD used with Python IV and V
Fence Check - term for combat checklist prior to entering hostile area
Fox - radio call for firing a AAM (see below for specific Fox calls)
Fox-1 (AIM-7 Sparrow)
Fox-2 (AIM-9 Sidewinder)
Fox-3 (AIM-120 AMRAAM)
FPA - Focal Plane Array
Furball - usually morphs into being when the fight becomes > 8 aircraft (no hard rules on numbers, however) and is also sometimes referred to as "Guns & Knives" (A4s)
Gate - Controller call to fighter to use afterburner (see also buster)
Grape - ready to be plucked (ie defensive and it's obvious)
Heater(s) - affectionate name for Sidewinders (they home on heat)
HOTAS - Hands On Throttle And Stick
HMD - Helmet Mounted Display (name used for helmet sighting systems with full display capability)
HMS - Helmet Mounted Sight (original term for sighting device on helmet to cue weapons; see JHMCS)
KIO - Knock it Off (radio call to cease maneuvering)
IFF - Identification Friend or Foe
IRCCM InfraRed Counter Measures ("expendable" flares that try to decoy Heaters)
IRCCM InfraRed Counter Counter Measures (capability to defeat IRCM)
JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System.. a US Helmet Mounted Display for F-15. F-15 and F/A-18)
Judy - Call from fighter telling AEW that further calls are unnecessary
JVC - Jet Vane Control (control method for AIM-9X that features paddles in rocket exhaust)
Merge Plot - call from AEW contrioller when radar contacts are "merged" and no vectors are possible
JT&E - Joint Test & Evaluation (sponsored by OSD to improve TTPs & evaluate technology)
MICA - French combo SRM/MRM with IR and Radar seekers on same missile body
Mil - as in "full mil" (same as MRT)
MRM - Medium Range Missile (Sparrow or AMRAAM)
MRT - Military Rated Thrust (max thrust before afterburner; see also "mil")
MSI - Multi-Sensor Integration
Python - Israeli SRM series (bad boys are the IV and V with high off boresight capability)
RIO - Radar Intercept Officer (F-14 NFO; see also WSO)
ROE - Rules of Engagement
RTB - Return to Base
SA - Situational Awareness
Splash - radio call for success against adversary
SRM - Short Range Missile (ie Sidewinder or Archer)
Tally - pilot sees bogey or other object of interest
TTP - Tactics, Techniques & Procedures
WSO - Weapon System Operator (USAF term in use by USMC F/A-18D and USN F/A-18F NFOs)
WVR - Within Visual Range (function of eyesight, but let's say 5-7 miles)
Visual - pilot sees friendly

I'll make this a living glossary so please send and corrections or additions to me and I'll incorporate same

 

[A4sForever]

ACM - Air Combat Maneuvering (dogfighting, .... furball, etc.)

Furball: usually morphs into being when the fight becomes > 8 aircraft (no hard rules on numbers, however) and is also sometimes referred to as "Guns & Knives" ....

..... good list, Joe. BZ .....

 

[DanMa1156]

History has shown over and over again, everytime we think dogfighting is dead, it comes up to bite us in the ass -- "oh yeah, it does still exist." Just as was mentioned previously, like the F-4 with no guns, people thinking the only engagements were going to be BVR; well we were wrong! Too late to think of other examples, but I know they exist and will continue to.

China anyone?

 

[HeyJoe]

it probably depends to a large degree upon the ROE .... if you have to have a visual ID to shoot ... stand by for a close aboard, high speed "merge". If that happens --- I would want to have an AIM-9X SRM with a helmet mounted sighting (cueing?) system (AND a gun) for the initial hard turn. You need both short and medium range missiles .... and a gun. You want as many good cards in your hand as you can get.

Why would anyone with a survival instinct settle for anything less ???

When AMRAAM arrived with super capability to reach out and touch someone, it was shackled with same ROE constraints that hampered employment of MRM Sparrows over North Viet Nam. Several encounters with Iraqi MiGs in OSW in which AEW was painting the bogies at range ended up at WVR ranges before AMRAAMs were fired. Why? ROE constraints restricting clearance to fire. F-16s that pounced Galebs over Bosnia were bascially WVR when they satisfied ROE and had to run them down.

As pilot_man notes...what happens when your long range "sticks" are gone?
Time to go for a switchblade!!

 

[eddie]

Question: What are potential-threat Air Forces' BVR capabilites?

It was my understanding that even the best Russian fighters were designed for the "knife-fight" because they simply cannot match us in the BVR arena (munitions, radars, electronics, stealth). Truth?

I guess my real question is: Do we have to worry about BVR threats, and would these threats change the way we enter an engagement in such a way that it would actually force the merge?

 

[skidkid]

Tread lightly boys.

 

[HeyJoe]

Question: What are potential-threat Air Forces' BVR capabilites?

It was my understanding that even the best Russian fighters were designed for the "knife-fight" because they simply cannot match us in the BVR arena (munitions, radars, electronics, stealth). Truth?

I guess my real question is: Do we have to worry about BVR threats, and would these threats change the way we enter an engagement in such a way that it would actually force the merge?

We used to always be a generation ahead of Soviet AAM technology, but we gave up lead in SRM arena in aftermath of AIM/ACEVAL in late 70s. USN and USAF couldn't cooperate so Sidewinder received a modest upgrade to AIM-9M while the Soviets went into crash program to develop and introduce AA-11 Archer (R-73 by their system). The MiG-29 also had a HMS and by 1985 they went from a genration behind to a generation ahead. They also developed the AA-10 Alamo series (with several different seeker types and rocket motors). THe BVR arena got very complicated then. Their jammers have always been nasty and brutish so putting all this together with ROE and tactics (question 2), you could likely have a merge.

Good questions!

 

[Schnugg]

As a former RAG instructor I can tell you not only does ACM teach close in weapons employment and as the name implies, dogfighting, but it lets you learn to fly the jet at the edge of the envelope. To fly by nibbling at buffet and feeling the aircraft respond at high G is an art.
I know there are times when you will have to manuever the jet violently when dodging a SAM or other threat (to include the ground). In that arena the additional hands on training of flying the jet at the edge, will also give you an advantage.

Should we continue WVR training?...in my opinion, yes.
Will we have visual engagements in the future due to our ROE?...without a doubt, yes.

r/
G

 

[skidkid]

Most dynamic arena to train and perfect flight leadership as well.

 

[eddie]

Ok, just to make sure I'm getting this stuff straight (this is all FAS/Global security stuff), and putting it up for reference too I suppose...

Them

+AA-10 (R-27): active/semi-active targeting
-Max ranges: 43-105 miles
-Effective range (OPSEC nono?)?

+AA-11 (R-73): All-aspect IR
-Max ranges: 12-24 miles
-Effective Range?

+AA-12 (R-77): Fire and Forget
-Max ranges: 31 miles
-Effective range?

_____________________________________________________
US

+Aim-9x: All-aspect IR, radar slaving
-Range: 21-23 miles
-Effective range?

+Aim-120: Fire and Forget
-Range: 24 miles
-Effective range?

I think I'm getting a nod, "yes" that this BVR stuff belongs in the "merge thread?" If not, I'm happy to have it moved .

Ok, so Russian armament looks nasiter on paper. Can we safely talk about the realities at all?

 

[HeyJoe]

Ok, just to make sure I'm getting this stuff straight (this is all FAS/Global security stuff), and putting it up for reference too I suppose...

Them

+AA-10 (R-27): active/semi-active targeting
-Max ranges: 43-105 miles
-Effective range (OPSEC nono?)?

+AA-11 (R-73): All-aspect IR
-Max ranges: 12-24 miles
-Effective Range?

+AA-12 (R-77): Fire and Forget
-Max ranges: 31 miles
-Effective range?

_____________________________________________________
US

+Aim-9x: All-aspect IR, radar slaving
-Range: 21-23 miles
-Effective range?

+Aim-120: Fire and Forget
-Range: 24 miles
-Effective range?

I think I'm getting a nod, "yes" that this BVR stuff belongs in the "merge thread?" If not, I'm happy to have it moved .

Ok, so Russian armament looks nasiter on paper. Can we safely talk about the realities at all?

Nope, OPSEC prevails and binds us from getting into that (realities of ranges and other specific performance parameters as well as tactics, techniques and procedures)

As Monsieur Skidkid warns: need to tread lightly here

Wouldn't go by FAS/Global security numbers necessarily. Manufacturers love to tout most optimistic performance that hardly matches reality. It's really hard to compare missile performance. Need validiated sims (6DOF best and all would be classified and unavailable to you*) because some many variables affect range in particular (principally launch altitude and speed of fighter and same for bogey). When tables do not give you those assumptions, you can be in a "apples and oranges" comparison right off the bat. Phoenix is gone now and it's no surprise that even though it was touted as a 100nm missile (demonstrated once in set up scenario), actual employment envelope wasn't that far.

Note: "Effective" range is more of a ballistic term for projectiles, missiles are usually compared at "optimum" ranges.

 

[eddie]

Nope, OPSEC prevails and binds us from getting into that (realities of ranges and other specific performance parameters as well as tactics, techniques and procedures)

Figured as much, thanks.

 

[HeyJoe]

If you really want to get a taste of the environment, check out VTSG's AirBook. It is a laptop with VR headset and was developed by former Topgun instructors for military. They have demos with unclas performance that is reasonable approximation. Their website has some demos on it: http://www.vtsginc.com/Products.html