For all you Michael Moore fans out there...

[Enishi1983]

woah, i didn't know this post got THIS personal before i can even post, but...

i just want to say, i am a republican, so is my brother (who's a corpsman in the navy) and my parents. the way that the economy is going, i have to say that the government is going a poor job of trying to maintain the country's economy. and yes, it's true that it's not JUST bush's fault. although he should be leading my example, he's also got advisors, who's work is to think and give advices (on how to use the conuntry's money to bush); i don't think we should scrutinize bush only. to finish this, i think bush is doing a pretty bad job of leading by example, but i respect him, because he's the president of the united states, and whatever happens, i'll do whatever the hell he says (gasp, i'm starting to sound like a marine now!)
the thing that i hate THE MOST about the bush administration is that they've killed the economy. my parents are entrepreneurs, and i hate it when they have a bad day at their business. i just wanna quit school, and just enlist!!! i really hope bush does something and raise the economice turmoil that's happening in the U.S. so that everyone can be happy.
by the way, my ap european history teacher from 2 years ago said that the us is in a HUGE debt to France or England (the tab's about 7 trillion or something, starting from the colonial times), so believe me, we'll be in debt all our lives, so do as much as you can and help U.S. do what it does best! helping the Needed!

BTW, are there any koreans in this messageboard? damn, korea is doing BAD (in all catagories). you US ppl should be happy with bush, because this is nothing compared to korea!

 

[doubledown]

I am responding to the invasion of Iraq. Throughout history we have seen large powers (such as the Romans) take over other countries and territories not necessarily because they were a threat, but because they wanted more power and/or they wanted the land for military stratigic advantage. It was common place for their military to come in and destroy towns, kill civilians and take people as slaves. Today we live in a civilized society.... supposably. Our human nature has not changed, just our policies. So why is it a big deal that we as a super power attack another country. The actual reasons our government do it are insignificant. The fact is that we, as civilians and military personel, have no choice in the matter. They say go and we go, no questions asked. So why protest? It's not like Bush is going to be like "oh, there's a group of protesters outside, you know, let's get our troops out of there, they've been there long enough"

My point is that war, killing and fighting is part of human nature. In the past they never needed a reason, they just did it. So why do we need a reason now?

 

[ben]

Just so you are aware, Alan Greenspan has a much larger influence on the state of the economy than President Bush does. In general, presidents don't really have all that much influence over what happens in the stock market, and it's the stock market that drives the heart of the US economy. Pres. Bush shouldn't be the one taking all the heat here.

 

[riley]

Thanks bcgeib.

Just one favor to ask of everyone - please, before anyone posts about how bad the President is doing on the economy - take a couple of economics courses, then come back and see if you can still post that same comment with a straight face.

 

[kevin]

to reiterate the cyclical thing again, the economy of present is always a product of the last 4-6 years. not to mention events (9/11) that are unexpected. to say bush is ruining the economy is like saying the marlins won the world series because they played well the season before.

jboomer and uinavy: sorry you dont like the attitude of all the wanna-be's here. too bad youre going to have to work with a lot of us. so deal with it. i for one would like to know that there's a good reason why im going to take someone else's life, let alone put mine at stake. that might be because i have morals, not sure. i have to believe the right path lies somewhere between the pot-smoking hippies and the mindless war-mongers.

kimphil: as to lies and politics. im going to contend that they are one in the same much of the time. politics is manipulation to achieve a goal, no matter what the issue is. lies are simply the result of truth coming head to head with politics. reminds me a little of lawyers. what is a lawyer's job- to uphold justice or to win the case? not a tough question to answer. then again, politicians are lawyers, so is all this a shock. what i do realize is that politics are an eternal reality, and hence to simply say politics is evil and run away is ludicrous. i for one believe bush tries to be a stand up leader in the grand scheme of things and does what is right. i was first convinced of this on his decision making with the ever-political stem cell debate. he lost a lot of people on that, but made his decision regardless. no president will ever be perfect or make all the right decisions...however to have a president actually care enough to try is enought to garner my support. ooh, that word reminds me of jennifer garner- i would vote for her for president.

"My point is that war, killing and fighting is part of human nature. In the past they never needed a reason, they just did it. So why do we need a reason now?"
-doubledown, im not trying to slam you here, but that's one of the more ridiculous things ive ever heard...i gotta believe that was a joke.

 

[riley]

Maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions with doubledown... if doubledown was drunk, there could be plausible deniability.

Doubledown is right in saying human nature is evil - just look at the world events on the news tonight. However, I still like to think that I am signing up on the good guy side and that all of my Grandad's buddies in WWII and my uncle's buddies in Vietnam that died - died fighting the bad guys for a good cause - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As soon as our nation stops caring, we become like everyone else - like the muslims in Sudan that butchered millions, like Stalin - just pick a hated country or ruler in time.

Cheers to jboomer - well said. God willing, if I’m selected for OCC 185 in Jan., I hope to be commissioned in the Corps in March. I am definitely the idealist and believe in honor, courage, and commitment. The comments about following orders were right on. How can anyone expect a military unit to function if you have a private who questions the orders of a corporal, who questions the orders of a Sergeant, who questions the orders of a lieutenant, who questions the orders of a captain? Well, you get the point.

Just imagine a Lieutenant ordered to take a hill and have him muse with his NCOs the historical ramifications of his decision to lead from in front or from the rear, whether diplomats will find it ethically responsible to kill all enemy soldiers who carry weapons, or just those over 5’9”, and finally if the world can truly be seen differently through rose colored glasses.

No offense, Kevin, (because I agree with all of your comments but those directed at jboomer) – but, if you decide to discuss PT options with your Sgt Instructor, or why the physical effects of running in the cold would not be well suited to the health of the candidates – jboomer will not have to deal with you in the service, because you will be flat on your butt outside the gate.

Can’t we all just agree to what jboomer said:
“Now, you can 'respectfully question' the orders given to you, but the only time this is an option is during the Planning Stage.”

As far as warmongers – the only ones I have known are the ones that have never experienced combat.

 

[NuSnake]

Enishi...I notice that youre a chem major...haha so I'm gonna stretch my History and Poly Sci International Relations muscles for a second. Yeah, we owe everyone in the free world money, but we also lend out a tremendous amount of money that we will never see again either. Every Nation has a huge amount of debt and it will be that way forever. No President will EVER be able to consolidate the US' debt, its simply too high.....not because of one President, or two or three for that matter, but rather because of a Nation that sees fit to spend money, not based on the amount of money that we actually have, but rather spending money based on our influence and international standing in the rest of the world. Other Nations borrow tons of money from the US because they KNOW it has worth. We lend money just like we spend it. The power of a Nation, in my opinion, is not based on how much they owe, but instead based on how much they lend. As long as other Nations(and powerful Nations at that, not just 3rd worlders) see fit to borrow money from the US, it will remain on top, as far as economy goes. In my opinon no other country can touch us militarily, although war has changed dramatically in the past 68 years. I hope I dont need to remind anyone that the US is still far FAR ahead of the number 2 nation in the world as far as the economy goes. Everyone is still trying to catch the US. Thats the name of the game, and I think why others dont necessarily like us that much.
Dealing with the middle east as an example. We can look back at the Ottoman Empire's domination. While that empire fell HARD, and basically by the 19th century had no influence left, they thought, in many ways like we see people in the middle east thinking today(READ: Not everyone, but many)that they didnt need to progress. They didnt progress with the rest of Europe with the Renniassance, Enilightenment, Aricultural, and Industrial Revolutions and there fore are still playing catch up. Thats why they need our help there. Many in this area are still of the belief that you need a ruling 'house'. And while I do like tradition, its not based on tradition in the mid east like it is in Great Britain for example, its based on power. The European World was a very, VERY nasty place basically from 1900 back. Why do you think so many people left and there were so many Revolutions during the 19th century??? Because everyone hated repressive systems.
The US doesnt have a repressive system and thats what makes it great. The fact that everyone can say what they want without the fear of being strung up on a pole because you disagree with those who are in power. These people that we are LIBERATING from an oppressive regime dont have that luxury. Thats why I think it is so important that we have a presence there.

Ok class, next time we will talk about the revolutions in Russia and why they happened. Have a good weekend, dont forget to be working on your papers....

haha sorry for the long post. But I thought a history lesson was necessary.

 

[Daedalus]

Bcgeip,Riley, and Kevin:
Well put about economics, I think that's the best 4 back to back posts I have read on Air Warriors concerning economics, finally I find someone who has some understanding of the subject.

 

[NuSnake]

I agree with Bcgeip on the econ situation, you have to look back a few years to fully understand why we are where we are. Good point

 

[kevin]

mcconnell: i would love to argue with you all day about this. unfortunately, it gets into a philosophical/religious debate that nobody here wants to read. but i will argue forever with you that human nature is inherently good, and war, etc. is a privation of this. aside from that, i understand your analogy of boot camp with war and it does make sense in some circumstances. however, the decision to question killing someone (anyone) is far removed from the decision to question a drill instructor regarding some drilling concerns. hence the problematic nature of analogies. when congressman kerry (i believe he was the one, not sure) was involved in the massacre of a village of people in vietnam, i would have hoped someone in his unit protested. guess not. do you have to follow orders sometimes without questioning...well yes. and this is why i would hope that my superiors all the way to the top are people who are motivated by doing the right thing above all else. so when i have someone above me who is hell bent on mindlessly doing whatever, that concerns me. and why i deem it necessary to think for myself...not just for myself, but for the well-being of those underneath me. but yes, i agree there is a time and place for this.

 

[Banjo33]

"sorry you dont like the attitude of all the wanna-be's here. too bad youre going to have to work with a lot of us. so deal with it."

You wanna make a bet? IF (and I highly stress that) you somehow weasel your way into a uniform and start spouting THAT garbage to your peers, you're going to be ostracized. You bring that crap to MY unit and you won't last a month. You'll be the 'duty whore', 'mess whore', cleaning lady, every suck-ass thing you can possibly imagine...you'll be doing it. I believe everyone deserves a fair shake and in my company (meaning presence) you're going to get it. But, take heed, VERY FEW of us are going to allow that type of behavior to fly. And I'll tell you another thing, if YOU question my orders, you're going to find yourself on your back, in a heartbeat. That's called insubordination and I won't accept it from anyone. You let one person get away with that type of behavior and you'll spend the rest of your career explaining EVERY order you issue.

"and this is why i would hope that my superiors all the way to the top are people who are motivated by doing the right thing above all else. so when i have someone above me who is hell bent on mindlessly doing whatever, that concerns me."

Your superiors, by and large, are motivated by doing the right thing. Yes, there are historical cases, where decisions were made that would seem morally wrong. And yes, sometimes leaders make poor decisions. But, it's not your place to question them. In your example above the village massacre, my bet is somewhere in there SOMEONE decided to take the initiative, step outside of the prescribed Order, and made the wrong decision. Now, that is an EXTREME example and one that fortunately is not commonplace. You would be hardpressed to try and understand the mindset, circumstances, or reasoning behind the leader that issued that order being you have ZERO experience and were not there to live it, so keep your sticky fingers out of it.

"i for one would like to know that there's a good reason why im going to take someone else's life, let alone put mine at stake."

You're putting your life at stake because that's what you agreed to do when you raised your right hand. Your life belongs to your commander at that point. If he/she tells you to take a bullet for the greater good, you take it willing-without question, knowing someone else is going to have the opportunity to live. You're in the wrong mindset Kevin! I hope for your sake and your potential subordinates that someone lights a fire under your ass and you figure these things out--accept them without question.

Now, the one thing I do agree with you about is that human's are inherently good. I believe this to an extent. Instead of it being human nature, I believe it is more a product of upbringing--and probably education. Take children for instance: they are selfish and will pursue their desires with every ounce of energy they possess and by any means possible. BUT, somewhere along that road, they are TAUGHT that you must respect other peoples feelings and societies rules and laws, and there will be a consequence if they fail to do so. Once they stop focusing internally on self-gratification and take into account the people around them, their conscience will ultimately steer them toward 'the good.'

Thank you riley.

But, "Can’t we all just agree to what jboomer said". I don't think anyone should agree with me, unless they understand why. I don't have to think about anything I just said because to me their is NO question that I am right. To me it's as natural as yawning. I hope that my subordinates (what an ugly word) do too. I'm always going to make EVERY decision with 'Troop Welfare' at the top of my list. But, I also understand that 'Mission Accomplishment' is paramount. And I'll follow EVERY order given to me, knowing 100% that my Commander has done the same for me. Mutual Respect.

 

[kevin]

wow that was sexually arousing. and i cant wait to be your whore...whether it's mess-whore, linen-whore...oh hell i dont care. my point about the attitude is that there are people who will be questioning things and disagreeing (perhaps not vocally) regarding decisions made and the way things are run. some will be your underlings, some your superiors, some your colleagues. so are you going to castrate them and say they dont deserve to be in the uniform with you. well guess what, they are...so too damn bad. i have friends in the navy who bad mouth it from this end to that and guess what- THEYRE STILL THERE. that's right, they havent been booted out yet. so i have to say frankly, if what i have to look forward to is working solely with and under the likes of you i hope to God i dont get selected. nice talking to you.

 

[NuSnake]

Just because they didnt get kicked out doesnt mean they dont pay for it.....

 

[FrogFly]

Ahhh, Kevin. That was pretty weak.

Kimphill: So where are you in the selection process? This question is just out of curiosity, and not necessarily an attempt to pick at you. It's just that I've seen you lurking around this forum for a while now and haven't seen anything about you going through OCS yet. What's the holdup?

Politics aren't really my thing; I tend stray from political debate because it's typically pointless. I suppose this can be related to Boomer's post, but I know who I am and what is right. I'm in this business for those very reasons- because I feel a connection between my personal beliefs and those of the people whom I ELECTED to represent. Which brings me to my point, Kevin. I'd hem your ass up in a heartbeat if you ever questioned my orders on the basis of your own personal interest. For you to think that those who EARNED those positions ahead of you simply because of timing, is an obvious display of your ignorance and frailty. I think every person is entitled to their own opinion, however, there's a line you need to cross before you pass judgement on those who you cannot possibly relate to. You haven't done that yet, and until you do, there's no ground for you to stand on. Now, take your ball and go home.

 

[NuSnake]

Kevin...get off the shed son........KEVIN, GET OFF THE SHED NOW!.....KEVIN GET OFF THE DAMN SHED OR I WILL PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE!!!!!!!

--Will Ferrell, SNL except I used Kevin, hahaha. Just a joke man.