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French getting another round of "inshallah"

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
One can argue how much a deterrent the American gun culture is to this sort of thing. But to say the presence of civilian guns would not make a difference cannot be proved. Blue on blue is often brought up, but in the couple case I am aware of, these were singular events in homes with police responding to a call to the home and mistaken identity. I can't find a case where an armed civilian responding in public caused a blue on blue or tactical confusion for the police. There are many cases of unarmed civilians taking down armed assailants sometimes when reloading, sometimes not. Without changing the venue, I remind you of the French train intervention just a few weeks ago. So if an unarmed individual can stop a mass shooting, why can't an armed one? It isn't unreasonable to believe an armed civilian could do the same thing an unarmed person could do more quickly and with less loss of life.

So, one might say, the Friday the 13th Paris attacks involved multiple shooter with automatic weapons. How could a modestly trained armed civilian make a difference? We throw around the word "disruption" all the time now. An unexpected response of any sort, let alone an armed response from someone not easily identified as the threat, like a police uniform, is very disruptive to the evil doers' plan. Simply disrupting their plan, diverting the shooters' attention, might allow more victims to flee, or unarmed individuals to intervene. These sort of guys clearly have some training and a plan. But they are not soldiers or police. They truly are amateurs. While the desire for martyrdom might fuel some to carry on the fight, others may flee, deviate from their plan, or take the quick way to the sixty virgins by their own hand to avoid capture. Any of those scenarios saves lives. Speculation, sure. But not unrealistic because there have been cases where all those things have occurred to one degree or another.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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Super Moderator
Contributor
One can argue how much a deterrent the American gun culture is to this sort of thing. But to say the presence of civilian guns would not make a difference cannot be proved....Speculation, sure....

Nor can the claim that civilian guns present will be of benefit be proved. Overall I think so few Americans actually carry, and I don't think that is likely to change, the chances of a civilian intervening are extremely slim at best. Again, I point to the example of the 'green on blue' and 'blue on blue' attacks in Afghanistan and Iraq where almost every American killed has been armed, and they had a minimum of training that few Americans have. Another example was in France, where armed police were killed in their attempt to stop the Charlie Hebdo attackers. The one recent example of a terrorist attack thwarted by bystanders, outside Israel which I already pointed out as a country is an anomaly when it comes to arms and training, was when they were unarmed.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
There is a big difference between stopping immigration and allowing legal, controlled immigration. Then again, how do we know that this had anything to do with immigration whatsoever? And if it did, that these guys were illegal? Could have been they or their parents were immigrated legally. Or maybe they were there as 'tourists'. Or....who the hell knows?! Unless you are part of the investigation we don't k ow jack or squat yet so why fixate on immigration?

And as for 'fixing' immigration, how do you suppose that will 'fix' the problem with domestic terrorist attacks? Are we and France supposed to ban all Muslims from immigrating? Because that seems to be where some of these arguments are headed. Almost all the terrorists on 9/11 were here legally. And France has been recently criticized for not accepting more refugees recently, I doubt they change their minds now. How has that changed things?

I have some pretty strong feelings about immigration, especially being married to one, and citizenship that are more in line with some harder line positions. But short of kicking out Muslims to include many citizens, which is unrealistic and illegal, or using a time machine to go back and change immigration policy for Europe and the U.S. 50 or more years ago I don't see how 'fixing immigration' would prevent these attacks.
Well, it certainly is tough to un-ring the immigration bell for Europe. That doesn't mean using common sense now is out of the question. France would be wise to secure their borders to prevent just anyone from entering their country. From there, a list of countries passports that aren't accepted would make a lot of sense as well, or at least not accepted without serious scrutiny.

Please keep arguing against common sense though. Your argument that it's impossible to know whether armed citizens could be helpful in a terrorist attack is too ridiculous to really address.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Well, it certainly is tough to un-ring the immigration bell for Europe. That doesn't mean using common sense now is out of the question. France would be wise to secure their borders to prevent just anyone from entering their country. From there, a list of countries passports that aren't accepted would make a lot of sense as well, or at least not accepted without serious scrutiny.

Who says it isn't used already here? and who says those passports don't receive extra scrutiny already? Haw many visitors have perpetrated terrorist attacks here since 9/11. A few, but not many.

Please keep arguing against common sense though. Your argument that it's impossible to know whether armed citizens could be helpful in a terrorist attack is too ridiculous to really address.

Is it? Just how many terror attacks have been stopped by armed citizens? Less than those stopped by unarmed Americans recently. And why are you so sure armed citizens would do any better than professional soldiers or police? Like those that have been killed by 'green on blue' attacks or by bank robbers armed to the teeth with automatic weapons? It largely remains a fantasy unproven in real life.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
Who says it isn't used already here? and who says those passports don't receive extra scrutiny already? Haw many visitors have perpetrated terrorist attacks here since 9/11. A few, but not many.



Is it? Just how many terror attacks have been stopped by armed citizens? Less than those stopped by unarmed Americans recently. And why are you so sure armed citizens would do any better than professional soldiers or police? Like those that have been killed by 'green on blue' attacks or by bank robbers armed to the teeth with automatic weapons? It largely remains a fantasy unproven in real life.
Well, since preliminary reports indicate that most (maybe all) of these terrorists were from Syria, and at least two of them entered Europe as "refugees", it's pretty clear that they weren't scrutinized enough. They should have been turned away along with all the rest of the "refugees".

As for the armed citizens thing, you apparently like playing the "what if" game. There are many cases of armed citizens stopping violent criminals. Your claim that there's no way of knowing whether armed citizens could help is simply idiotic. Then you throw in something nobody claimed about doing better than police. As for the green on blue stuff, who do you think stopped those attacks? How do you think they would have gone against unarmed victims? Why do I feel like I am explaining something to a child?
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Well, since preliminary reports indicate that most (maybe all) of these terrorists were from Syria, and at least two of them entered Europe as "refugees", it's pretty clear that they weren't scrutinized enough.

Oh c'mon.... I'm sure we'll get it right. We've got out best people on the job...Wait. What's that Homeland Security Chairman? Hmmm, ok. Hey, FBI and NCTC - what do you think? We can vet all these folks right? Ahhh, here we go, finally, somebody who thinks it's all much ado about nothing...
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Be careful out there, Caesium.

Superstition abounds. They picked Friday the 13th for this latest round of atrocities.

For those who are wondering what Caesium is talking about with respect to NATO Article 5.

This recent FP article is germane. In terms of professional military education, every commissioned officer ought to be familiar with what's in the NATO Treaty - particularly Art. 5

After sleeping on yesterday's events, I think this development has the potential to mean big changes in how the West deals with IS. Whether our leadership in DC has the courage/energy/will to completely reexamine its approach to the threat remains to be seen. I don't know if a significant NATO-based effort can succeed without strong U.S. leadership.
 

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
...........don't forget about the Russians Brett. They will complicate any significant western military intervention. It already has.
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
Gun culture may not be a deterrent to this kind of evil, but I'm sure glad I have them.

As to the response, my prediction is that it will be underwhelming. The response that I would like to suggest is one I can't suggest, because it would negate everything we stand for. However I do think that this is the result of the old axiom that nature abhors a vacuum. We need to eliminate this threat while spending some real effort on planning how we prevent yet another islamic extremist group from rising in this current one's place. Otherwise, the cycle will just repeat itself, the very definition of insanity.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Again, I point to the example of the 'green on blue' and 'blue on blue' attacks in Afghanistan and Iraq where almost every American killed has been armed, and they had a minimum of training that few Americans have.

Can we say that a majority of the green on blue attackers (> 50%?) are killed once they start attacking. How are these attackers dying? A wag of a finger and a stern look? I agree that a bunch of people who are armed get killed by attackers, but you can't stop with the logic there. You have to take it one step further and also say that the attacker is often stopped and additional people are NOT killed because people are armed (ie, they're shot).

Nor can the claim that civilian guns present will be of benefit be proved.

True. But there's also some anecdotal evidence that shows armed citizens can do exactly what Wink was saying...disrupt the attackers plan. The recent NOSC attack is a perfect example, even if one or both of the "Blue" shooters never hit their target.

Overall I think so few Americans actually carry, and I don't think that is likely to change, the chances of a civilian intervening are extremely slim at best.

Given where you live, I understand why you may say that. In other parts of the country, I think you'd be surprised. Again, anecdotal, but I always find it interesting that even "domestic attackers" (so we don't use the "T" word) who start shooting in the south or the west pick soft targets that are some form of a gun-free zone. In the case of the NOSC shooting, it turned out (allegedly) that people weren't following the rules (in a good way).
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
...........don't forget about the Russians Brett. They will complicate any significant western military intervention. It already has.
If only we could make them care that IS *allegedly* blew one of their passenger planes out of the Sinai sky?
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...........don't forget about the Russians Brett. They will complicate any significant western military intervention. It already has.
I wouldn't dream of it. ;) It will be interesting to see how they respond to any movement toward a UNSCR vis-a-vis Syria/IS.
 

villanelle

Nihongo dame desu
Contributor
I support the general notion of "give us your poor, your tired, your hungry". However, though it hurts my socially liberal heart to say it, at some point I think a government's first obligation has to be to its own citizens. When the citizens bear the responsibility of supporting that government, it makes sense they should bear much of the fruit as well. I'm sorry for people who, by dumb luck, weren't born as fortunately as I was. Truly. And I do feel an obligation as a global citizen to assist when practicable. But maybe it is time to admit that letting in streams of people with only the most cursory vetting, when we know the context of that stream, is a bad idea. Could I be the one standing at the border with a weapon in hand, turning away wretched, desperate souls? Not unless I absolutely had to. Hell, maybe not even then. But perhaps it is becoming necessary. I hate that. I hate thinking it and I feel ashamed to be typing it. But we have border controls and immigration policies (whether or not they are strictly enforced) for a reason. For the most part, we tend to think of the economic part of that reason. But there's an undeniable security aspect of it as well.

I know that 99.xx% of Muslims (made up %) are decent, peace loving people. Likewise, most Syrians, I'm sure. I myself and not a Christian, so this isn't a religious bias, I don't think. But I also know that these *particular* people are coming from a place with a lot of extremists, and for that reason, maybe we need to make the effort to sort out as best we can what side they fall on before tossing out the welcome mat. It's not that I don't want any Muslims/Syrians/refugees here (figuratively, as I know they aren't pouring on to American soul just yet). It's that I don't want policies and procedures to be circumvented as the expense of security. I don't think anyone should be tossed out for being in the same group as some bad people. I'd like to think the US and the world has learned a lesson from the internment camps of WWII. But that doesn't mean we owe it to refugees to ignore our own policies--policies established in part to protect us--in order to provide as much assistance as quickly as possible.

Gah. The whole thing is sickening, and I don't like the way it's making me think. But maybe it's time. I'm struggling a bit today with realigning my values to reflect a shifting reality. Damn.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I know that 99.xx% of Muslims (made up %) are decent, peace loving people.

Iirc, according to a study wink posted, the number of muslims who don't think terrorist tactics are okay is closer to 70%, not 99%.
 
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