Get your numbers right sailor!

[bert]

Here's the part you're missing. Until now there was no reason (other than personal bitterness) to believe there was a group of people getting preferential consideration - sure there were always a few stragglers who got moved along further than they should have been. But for the most part if you take an HONEST look at fitreps and performance records you would find that, within the evaluation construct we are forced to work within, the right people have been progressed. Now, however, there really is a list and and its got nothing to do with merit. Its affirmative action by another name.

If the ADMs are so concerned with this they ought to be looking at the underlying problem, why aren't more minorities interested in going to USNA or ROTC schools and then staying Navy? Work on creating a want and not forcing a need.

I don't think I am missing anything, I think we are arguing two different points. Don't read too much into my comment: I'm not defending this new effort, I'm just saying it isn't going to have any kind of large impact. I'm not slamming the "golden child" aspects of the current system - it is a natural consequence of the FITREP, board, and detailing system we have, and no, I don't have a better way to do it so that severely limits my ability to bitch about it. I also know I wouldn't have been able to get a ticket punched as an FRS instructor if I hadn't broken out on my first tour, and if I hadn't started from that base I would not have been able to re-designate when and how I did, and would not be the happy navy camper I am today. Being a beneficiary of the system means I can't whine about it, but that doesn't mean I can't be honest about the fact that politics is already a factor.

Looking at the email that sparked this thread, I didn't read it as "tell me how you are going to take every minority and make them a CO" or "tell me how you are going to take undeserving minorities and make them CO's". If that is what they do then yes, that is awful, but I really don't think it is going to happen that way. The point I am making is that if a couple minorities get advanced farther than they should, then I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because it already happens anyway. Overall, I think the system does o.k., and I don't see this initiative changing that by any appreciable amount. The fact that now somebody may get a political advantage from their skin color or gender instead of because they kissed the right ass just isn't something I can get worked up over.

Your last point is spot on, but while that would be the right way to do it, it isn't the fast way and would take 15+ years to produce results.

 

[Flash]

Sure. And the people who are on those existing "lists" got there for a reason other than the color of their skin. My community certainly has its "golden children" as you call them. BUT, and this is a big but, they got on that list through superior performance in hard jobs.

Or sometimes they marry the Skippers daughter, didn't hurt in either case, especially with the one who got sent home from cruise early. At least they were both hot.......that would be the daughters. :icon_wink

 

[A4sForever]

From a guy who served on active duty from '65 to '71 & in RVN, you do NOT want a military (certainly an army) that is made up largely of conscripts. I can be, and often is, a disaster. Ask anyone who was on the Constellation in Nov '72 when they essentially had a mutiny on board. An all-volunteer force is the only way to run our military.

Well ... we can agree to disagree on this one ... everyone 'owes' the Country something. And since this is a 'military' forum, I think I can say our draftee Army did pretty well in Korea and WW2, if memory serves ... it all depends upon leadership. Without that -- you have problems.

And to be completely honest, I can tip my hat to the Vietnam-era draftees, as well. There were 'problems', yes -- more so after Tet '68, but rough edges and sensationalism always seems to get the most attention. A lot of the problems stem from poor leadership, a weakening of support at home, and the lack of political will to do the job. A slightly different set of circumstances would have seen yours truly drafted. Overall, the Vietnam USA 'draft-doggies' were second to none and to say otherwise does a disservice -- to THEIR service and their sacrifices.

Riots/borderline mutiny at sea?? Think Kitty Hawk: all 'volunteers' involved, no conscripts. Some of the southern white participants were in my squadron. It was a black/white race riot, pure & simple and the particulars that allowed it to develop were aided & abetted by 'soft' disciplinary policies at the highest levels on the ship AND squadrons.

 

[Lawman]

Well ... we can agree to disagree on this one ... everyone 'owes' the Country something. And since this is a 'military' forum, I think I can say our draftee Army did pretty well in Korea and WW2, if memory serves ... it all depends upon leadership. Without that -- you have problems.

And to be completely honest, I can tip my hat to the Vietnam-era draftees, as well. There were 'problems', yes -- more so after Tet '68, but rough edges and sensationalism always seems to get the most attention. A lot of the problems stem from poor leadership, a weakening of support at home, and the lack of political will to do the job. A slightly different set of circumstances would have seen yours truly drafted. Overall, the Vietnam USA 'draft-doggies' were second to none and to say otherwise does a disservice -- to THEIR service and their sacrifices.

Riots/borderline mutiny at sea?? Think Kitty Hawk: all 'volunteers' involved, no conscripts. Some of the southern white participants were in my squadron. It was a black/white race riot, pure & simple and the particulars that allowed it to develop were aided & abetted by 'soft' disciplinary policies at the highest levels on the ship AND squadrons.

Yes but gone are the methods of instilling Soldiers to toe the line and pull their weight when they failed to achieve the proper self motivation. Smoking a soldier for a failure either in the performance of his duties (say a 3 mil error when performing an immediate fire mission on a mortar team) or shirking off your duties and telling the Plt Sgt to "fuck that" is becoming less and less a common and quick means of addressing the issue. Now we have to council soldiers to do their F'ing jobs. This isnt as true in the Combat Arms MOS's (Infantry, Armor, Etc) but it is still becoming the norm. Taking into account that the majority of people you would typically draft and combine that with a complete paradigm shift in how we "lead" to how we "manage" Id be terrified to see the results of such a military.

 

[Spekkio]

So what you're saying is that we just need a large-sized E-8 in every division/platoon who kicks the shit out of the E-3's who think they can refuse to carry out orders.

Actually sounds like a good plan.

 

[phrogpilot73]

So what you're saying is that we just need a large-sized E-8 in every division/platoon who kicks the shit out of the E-3's who think they can refuse to carry out orders.

I'm down with that.

 

[FlyBoyd]

Anybody else here wonder why the bureau needs a photo of us for promotion to 0-4 and above? Why do you need a picture of me? You have my awards on file, can see that I pass the PRT and height/weight limit? So why does the bureau need a photo? A buddy of mine didnt make 0-4 this board because...... Yep no picture. Aint that a bitch.

Dude...the picture has been a requirement for 3+ years (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=29061). His bad for being clueless. My picture was there. I didn't make it....see below

Do you drive the ugly car? Date the ugly chick/dude? Buy the ugly house? But they are awesome on the inside right?

Fact: Pretty people get hired over ugly people all the time. Ugly people have to be better and smarter to make up the gap. The Navy wants poster children and, IMO, they will accept the fact that an emphasis on diversity will cause a higher confidence vote by a board member looking at a picture.

So if you are an ugly white dude/chick with a good record you are screwed. You might as well go home early, drink some beer and play some golf. The MP that you get from that work ethic will yield the same result.

 

[boobcheese]

Dude...the picture has been a requirement for 3+ years (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=29061). His bad for being clueless. My picture was there. I didn't make it....see below

Do you drive the ugly car? Date the ugly chick/dude? Buy the ugly house? But they are awesome on the inside right?

Fact: Pretty people get hired over ugly people all the time. Ugly people have to be better and smarter to make up the gap. The Navy wants poster children and, IMO, they will accept the fact that an emphasis on diversity will cause a higher confidence vote by a board member looking at a picture.

So if you are an ugly white dude/chick with a good record you are screwed. You might as well go home early, drink some beer and play some golf. The MP that you get from that work ethic will yield the same result.

So FlyBoyd = Bitter ugly man?

 

[Deleted member 24525]

Bottom Line: this is a fucking outrage and exemplifies where we are wrong in the Navy.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
---Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[MasterBates]

Fact: Pretty people get hired over ugly people all the time. Ugly people have to be better and smarter to make up the gap. The Navy wants poster children and, IMO, they will accept the fact that an emphasis on diversity will cause a higher confidence vote by a board member looking at a picture.

So if you are an ugly white dude/chick with a good record you are screwed. You might as well go home early, drink some beer and play some golf. The MP that you get from that work ethic will yield the same result.

So the Navy thinks I'm ugly?

 

[FlyBoyd]

So FlyBoyd = Bitter ugly man?

Not bitter...most would kill for what I have pulled off...I recognize that.

Ugly? I spoke to a beautiful woman tonight who is totally in love with me. Nevermind that she is 73, mostly blind and my mother...I'm pretty damn it!!!!

 

[FlyBoyd]

So the Navy thinks I'm ugly?

Yes, the Navy agrees with the rest of us.

 

[phrogpilot73]

So the Navy thinks I'm ugly?

You should have shaved your head AFTER the picture...

 

[Recovering LSO]

Would like to see one of the flag officers who lurk these pages chime in on this - maybe set the rest of straight on what we don't understand...

 

[MAKE VAPES]

129,
I am afraid the reply to the "explanation" would include "WITH ALL DUE RESPECT" to said flag.... that just won't work. I think the "explanation" would involve reitteration of our oath of office... shut your cakehole-esque lame-assery (is that a word?) is what I would expect, although I have an "open" mind and would love to experience the revelation of genuine understanding. Front-line warfighters would believe in this CRAP? Push it forward?

I'll help them with their diversity "problem" in less than 5 years.

Me thinks we need to move the Pentagon a few more hundred miles from the other white buildings across the Potomac.

ugh.