Harvest Hawk C130 flown by Cobra and Jet guys??!?

[Harrier Dude]

I agree, but I was still thinking about when I wanted to use the Herc as an AMC platform, but couldn't...

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You still could. All you really need is access to a radio, a set of maps (probably access to their moving map, too), and some SA. It could be done. Not much more complicated than the AMC Huey.

But the DASC had basically turned into a prized whipping boy that certain people just wanted to fight over who got to hit next, and the friendly neighborhood DASC OIC spent most of his time getting yelled at for doing what the ACE CO told him to do. The GCE, which had essentially no authority to clear any kind of appreciable fires on its own, thanks to the CAOC and power plays well beyond my pay grade, wasn't even a true GCE, as MEB kept a tight, tight control over who could do what

True, that. The DASC should be collocated with the GCE FSCC and should serve to supply the GCE with air delivered power (in all of its forms) and keep the ACE up to date on requirements and plans. As a former Division Air O, I actually had great use for the DASC in this regard. They were my conduit to real-time aviation services and fires and pretty much gave me whatever I needed if they had it, as it should be.

Their biggest problem is usually communication closely followed by overestimating their own SA and influence. They are supposed to be facilitators and suppliers, which is extremely valuable work. It's not sexy, but when done well (rarely) shortens the kill chain immensely. That, of course, is predicated on having a commander that knows how to use them.

....the ACE-MEB 'Ark' debacle at Leatherneck, but no one wants to hear that shit.

Actually, I do. I was in the first ever staff meeting in the MEB Ark. What a joy. Did the ACE finally get their own Ark?

 

[gaijin6423]

Physical collocation with the FSCC is a mixed bag, but--in my professional opinion--absolutely vital. (Electronic collocation is bullshit.) One of the problems associated with this, though, tends to be, as you said, communication, whether that's a technology issue, or something more like 'out-of-sight-out-of-mind'. I might have my DASChood rescinded for this, but our systems--with the exception of LongArm capability--were never designed for distributed operations, and neither was our TO. Frankly, I still remain amazed that we were able to accomplish as much as we did, but we were able to leverage quite a few resources outside our normal chain of command to score some assistance. The TAOC, when it came online, was a huge boon to our general SA, and even though there are people who would shit themselves if they read this, the distributed ASE construct we came up with was, despite being a complete bastardization, necessary in my mind. I do think that my relief made a further refinement of the idea by tweaking just who controlled what, though, but I lost that fight with the folks at MAG-40 when I originally brought it up.

The Ark...

The Seabees, who remain IMO utterly fucking amazing, built the MEB 'Ark' at Leatherneck, and they did a great job. However, someone forgot to mention to them that the COPS floor would be plugging in a metric shit ton of electronic equipment into that part of the building. Originally, the DASC was supposed to have half the width of the building, immediately behind the wall used to display the the MEB SWO's projections. The MEB G6 decided that he didn't like that idea, and had the plans changed to give him both an office, and slightly more server room. So we were left with a tiny, hot ass closet to cram a full DASC crew into. At first, it was an inconvenience, but we began to have serious issues with our radio distribution systems, which are the sole reason why we had AC units in our inventory. Not to mention that the entire MEB Battle U, DASC, and server room were all powered by three 20A outlets. Three. One of my electricians and I figured out that each of those outlets was running about 65+A...without the breakers tripping. After some back and forth between MEB and the ACE, we wound up rolling over a few of our generators and AC units, and were enjoying independent and more robust power and AC in no time. A few weeks later, though, the DASC wound up being pulled from the Ark, and we set up shop over in our own compound in a borrowed 3-in-1 the TACC loaned us.

The ACE did wind up getting their own Ark, which was completed a bit after MEB's. The TACC's setup was pretty nice, actually, even if I usually only saw it when the SWO wanted to berate me.

 

[squeeze]

Physical collocation with the FSCC is a mixed bag, but--in my professional opinion--absolutely vital. (Electronic collocation is bullshit.)... I might have my DASChood rescinded for this, but our systems--with the exception of LongArm capability--were never designed for distributed operations, and neither was our TO.

That is (or was, but I imagine it hasn't changed) the problem with the MACCS in Afghanistan in a nutshell. You have a DASC located at LNK who can't talk to the RCT COCs and ASLTs co-located with RCTs that may or may not have airspace to control, and if they do, have questionable comm throughout that airspace. I've seen the DASC/ASE work very well and I've seen it work very poorly, both within the MEF AO in OEF.

Where it worked well, as gaijin well knows, is during Op Moshtarak's initial phases, where you had basically a singular AOR, an RCT with a co-located ASE who managed a HIDACZ around Marjeh, and a central ROZ managed by the RCT AirO. This worked very well where battalion boundaries overlapped and IDF and aviation fires consistently crossed battlespace boundaries. Everyone could talk to everyone else either via data or voice. This facilitated the rapid deconfliction, prioritization, and tasking of airspace within the RCT's AO. Through sheer willpower, aviation was treated as an asset in DS of the RCT, where they could task them as they saw fit. Of course this annoyed the TACC to a great deal, but I'm still unsure what they actually do.

Fast forward 5 months to when ops are far more distributed, with distinctly different northern and southern AOs. The DASC remained at LNK with an ASE assigned to the northern AO who neither controlled any airspace, nor had the ability to communicate easily with the assets in support of the RCT's subordinate units. So, you have multiple battalions with kinetic AOs and neighboring boundaries, but a central authority, whose task is to manage the airspace above them that does not directly communicate with them, and due to location, has very poor comm with the aircraft overhead. What this forced us to do was basically fill the role of the DASC between the battalion AirOs and essentially cut our own Regimental ASE and higher DASC out of the loop. This caused a lot of tension with the DASC and the TACC.

In a distributed fight, the supported units (battalions) must have direct communication and liasion with the agency that controls the airspace above their battlespace. This wasn't happening and lead to a lot of inefficiency on the whole (although, I'll argue as AirO's we were probably more efficient within our RCT AO than the DASC could've been.) I imagine not a lot has changed since last April, as "that's the way we've always done it." I'm a fan of a DASC-method of operation in theory, but in execution, it often seems ill-equipped, and ill-trained to actually handle the task.

/"say position and altitude"
//I could write a dissertation on how F'd up the MACCS is/was in Afghanistan
///don't even get me started on Hotwalls and Goalposts as the worst FSCMs ever imagined

 

[sbeaTm08]

Reserves with their T-models can. J's no.

We use it out here and it goes to just about every exercise. We flew the crap out of that thing at Cobra Gold. I never had the so called "pleasure" which was fine with me. Every time I tried to talk to them though it was worthless.

 

[phrogpilot73]

You still could. All you really need is access to a radio, a set of maps (probably access to their moving map, too), and some SA. It could be done. Not much more complicated than the AMC Huey.

Just now saw this... I COULD... but the desire to use the UYQ's was in that, I had my own dedicated radios - and didn't have to worry about doing the dick-dance of getting in the way of the aircrew doing THEIR job... In the end of the day, I HATE using a Huey as an AMC platform because it really only gives me ONE radio to work with - because I'd rather have two available full time to the aircrew.

And that's the kind of thinking that will keep me from making General...

 

[Harrier Dude]

I was teaching this very subject today. Helicopterborne Operations.

ASC(A) and DASC(A) were discussed at length with the resident MAWTS dudes. The bottom line is that both have basically lost their relevance, but putting the AMC in the C-130 is still a viable option.

That's if you actually get to see your Herc dudes in person during a deployment.