-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
HeliFOs
- Thread starter MasterBates
- Start date
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Tail in wind hover to VERTREP to the Foc'sle?
I'd rather not do that in a 60B, especially with a large load. Not a lot of control margin left if I remember right. Lighter helo maybe would be OK.
I'd rather not do that in a 60B, especially with a large load. Not a lot of control margin left if I remember right. Lighter helo maybe would be OK.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Psst - they don't use the Phrog anymore... They have to worry about that kinda crap.
Wait, wait, wait. Navy helos have light thingies to help them land on the boat?!? I knew I was more of a man...
Read it/see it & weep; to wit -- HS-8 bringin' back some LOX for the fast mover boys & their hangovers:
HELO LOVE
photo by A4sForever
And I would rather not vertrep with a 60B at all. Obviously, vertreping with a tailwind in any aircraft (tandem rotor included) will cause a reduction in the size of load you can take.
Rather than letting this evolve into a discussion of helo aerodynamics, I believe this would be the appropriate time for the peanut gallery to chime in with "size of load you can take" jokes about life in the HSL world. (After all, you can't let the P-3 guys take the "shoes with wings" title without a fight).
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Does HSL do SPECWAR type stuff? The UK Junglie Squadrons fly with two pilots for what its worth, maybe there's a reason.
All true, but since the original question was regarding HSL and someone in the second seat... HSL does VERTREP. It's one of our mission areas and it happens regularly, so it's just one more potential "issue" w/ the NFO idea.
The "SPECWAR" mission consists of some sort of operator sitting in the back w/ good optics doing his thing. Since there's only one cabin door and it's on the "pilot's" side, it's not really an issue.
I'm not taking anyone's load, regardless of the size. I'll leave that to the HC dudes.
I think I'm leaning towards this side of the arguement. I think it's safer to have 2 qualified pilots up front, especially when our mission (speaking from the HS side) involves being at low altitudes over the water day or night...especially if night. If someone get's vertigo at 150'....there isn't a lot of time, thats why I think it's safe to have another qualified pilot who can recover appropriately. I think Zab made a similar point on the P-3 side.
When you are fighting an aircraft with a large crew (at least 4, abviously more in VP) VERY close to the water for extended periods of time, 2 pilots just seems like a better idea to me. No disrespect to the FOs of course.
That is an interesting point, maybe HooverPilot or FLYTPAY could chime in on the dynamics of ASW or ASuW from the S-3 side of the house. But they still had one things helos or P-3 don't.....
I'm just more comfortable with plenty of hours and experience between both front seat guys. Especially when I think of EPs and vertigo in a hover on a low light night.....
The best reason I heard for two pilots in the helo/COD/P-3 is because they carry more people than just the pilots. If it was just two pilots up front, and they ball it up, it's just the pilots that eat it and it's sorta "their fault". If it's two pilots up front with people in back, and they ball it up, there's really no way for the people in back to remedy that, other than just ride it in and hope for the best. The idea is that with two pilots, if one screws it up the other was there as a backup. Compare that to the S-3, all the riders had an ejection seat so they could all get out no problem if the pilot screwed it up. Same same with the other jets.
At least that's the best reason I heard.
At least that's the best reason I heard.
on a slight threadjack:
The foreign navy I flew with almost bought S-3s to take over their MMA requirements. But the caveat was that they didn't have the infrastructure to maintain the ejection seats. The answer? "We'll just put regular seats in."
Now, the P-3s I flew for them did not have chutes, but when I heard "Hoover - Ejection Seat + Single Pilot + 1-3 crewmen," I cringed.
They didn't buy them anyway.
The foreign navy I flew with almost bought S-3s to take over their MMA requirements. But the caveat was that they didn't have the infrastructure to maintain the ejection seats. The answer? "We'll just put regular seats in."
Now, the P-3s I flew for them did not have chutes, but when I heard "Hoover - Ejection Seat + Single Pilot + 1-3 crewmen," I cringed.
They didn't buy them anyway.
Also, don't forget the S-3 long ago that was blasted with hail and knocked the pilot out. It was the NFO who made the emergency descent to save the aircraft. The pilot woke up to find the NFO setting up for the approach to land the plane.
I agree that SNAs would not get much from an NFO while they are still learning stick skills, but NFOs would be a utilizable asset in a helo just as much as anything else. Its an extra set of eyes and an extra pair of hands. Also in these horor situations that have been described in this thread who would really be dumb enough not to use those extra pair of hands in an actual emergency just because the wings have two anchors. Even with two pilots only one can fly at a given time while the other would monitor gauges, approach plates, comms, and things like that.
Finally, although you could fly an aircraft like a p-3 solo, John Trivolta was grounded in his 737 when they found out he pulled up in a dual piloted aircraft solo.
I agree that SNAs would not get much from an NFO while they are still learning stick skills, but NFOs would be a utilizable asset in a helo just as much as anything else. Its an extra set of eyes and an extra pair of hands. Also in these horor situations that have been described in this thread who would really be dumb enough not to use those extra pair of hands in an actual emergency just because the wings have two anchors. Even with two pilots only one can fly at a given time while the other would monitor gauges, approach plates, comms, and things like that.
Finally, although you could fly an aircraft like a p-3 solo, John Trivolta was grounded in his 737 when they found out he pulled up in a dual piloted aircraft solo.