honor concept vs. honor code?

[DSL1990]

In almost all instances the reasonable man theory usually prevailed. If you said you cleaned under your bunk during an inspection and they find that you did not, you are not going to get kicked out. If you say that you were studying when you were really making out on the town, you can get kicked out.

it may depend more on the school that has the honor code, rather then the honor code. except for the USNA, all these schools seem to have a similar code, like, "A cadet does not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do." But for example, at VMI, I sort of get the sense there is zero tolerance for lies of any kind. for example, here is an article that mentions a cadet who got drummed out for not putting himself on report for being out of his room after lights-out, and having someone else rat him out first:
http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/vmi/vmihonor.html
this is an old article, so maybe things have changed, but I'd be afraid to tell even the whitest lie and if I made a mistake under stress, for example, because the cadre was yelling in my face, I'd want to immediately correct anything I might have said that was wrong. I'd definitely want to tell whether or not I cleaned the floor. I don't know if that is the intent of the honor code, but I find it all pretty scary in how serious it all seems to be. At least I haven't read anything at all that seems to suggest that there is a reasonable man theory at VMI- nothing that says that some lies are punished less severely then others. I'm really under the impression that if the honor court finds you guilty of telling any lie at all, there is only one punishment - a drumming out.

 

[TheBubba]

if I made a mistake under stress, for example, because the cadre was yelling in my face, I'd want to immediately correct anything I might have said that was wrong.

That is the intent of an honor concept. And that's one part of honor. People make mistakes, no changing that. The key here is what you do after you realize a mistake has been made. Do you cover it up or do you fix it and move on.

Its not to make you afraid to lie cheat or steal. Its to get you to think about how lying cheating and stealing can affect the way other see you. Think about it this way: Would you want someone you couldn't trust in the cockpit with you or on your wing? I wouldn't.

In the example you bring up, lying under stress then immediately correcting it will save you alot of ass-pain in the end. Will you get in some amount of trouble? Yes, you can and might. However, if the powers that be, whether its a board of your peers or a 3-star, see that you tried to correct the issue of your own accord, then they are definitely going to take that into consideration.

What it boils down to is that and honorable person isn't someone that has never lied. It is someone that if he does, will take every action within his power to make sure that the situation is corrected. Without being told to. An honorable man will always first and foremost endeavor to tell the truth at all times. (Just covering the lying part b.c of the example)

 

[DanMa1156]

That is the intent of an honor concept. And that's one part of honor. People make mistakes, no changing that. The key here is what you do after you realize a mistake has been made. Do you cover it up or do you fix it and move on.

Its not to make you afraid to lie cheat or steal. Its to get you to think about how lying cheating and stealing can affect the way other see you. Think about it this way: Would you want someone you couldn't trust in the cockpit with you or on your wing? I wouldn't.

In the example you bring up, lying under stress then immediately correcting it will save you alot of ass-pain in the end. Will you get in some amount of trouble? Yes, you can and might. However, if the powers that be, whether its a board of your peers or a 3-star, see that you tried to correct the issue of your own accord, then they are definitely going to take that into consideration.

What it boils down to is that and honorable person isn't someone that has never lied. It is someone that if he does, will take every action within his power to make sure that the situation is corrected. Without being told to. An honorable man will always first and foremost endeavor to tell the truth at all times. (Just covering the lying part b.c of the example)

Well said. Getting someone afraid to lie isn't educating someone on why it's wrong or necesarrily preventing them from doing it - rather, I agree that one ought to see the effects of his/her action or the foresight to see what would/could happen from a lie. Not sure how it was when you graduated, but since I've been here, there seems to be quite an emphasis on, "if you did this kind of thing in the fleet, what would've happened?" for example, gundecking a log could lead to massive malfunctions, setting an example that lying is ok to your sailors, and possibly even death to people working in those spaces or worse. And guess who's responsible for the needless death of those 19 year olds? In the end, it's that Junior Officer who gundecked the log or permitted the gundecking to happen.

 

[AllAmerican75]

it may depend more on the school that has the honor code, rather then the honor code. except for the USNA, all these schools seem to have a similar code, like, "A cadet does not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do." But for example, at VMI, I sort of get the sense there is zero tolerance for lies of any kind. for example, here is an article that mentions a cadet who got drummed out for not putting himself on report for being out of his room after lights-out, and having someone else rat him out first:
http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/vmi/vmihonor.html
this is an old article, so maybe things have changed, but I'd be afraid to tell even the whitest lie and if I made a mistake under stress, for example, because the cadre was yelling in my face, I'd want to immediately correct anything I might have said that was wrong. I'd definitely want to tell whether or not I cleaned the floor. I don't know if that is the intent of the honor code, but I find it all pretty scary in how serious it all seems to be. At least I haven't read anything at all that seems to suggest that there is a reasonable man theory at VMI- nothing that says that some lies are punished less severely then others. I'm really under the impression that if the honor court finds you guilty of telling any lie at all, there is only one punishment - a drumming out.

You will not get rolled because you slip up while Cadre is yelling at you. But if you get inspected and are asked if you got a haircut within the last week(you'll be required to get one weekly until Break Out), and you repeatedly say yes, but your hair keeps getting longer, you will be investigated and eventually drummed out.

I could not have said it any better than The Bubba. The Honor Code is to instill trust amongst everyone. I can leave a thousand dollars laying out on my desk(we also lack locks on the door) and then go to class and know it will be there when I get back. Also, the Honor Code mainly revolves around official statements and certification. As I've said before, you are worrying about things you do not understand but that will be explained to you in depth during Hell Week. . .err, Matriculation Week. There is a reason you have three Honor Court/Honor Code briefings during the 9 day period. Go out and have fun with your friends, worry about the Honor Code when you get here.

As for the article: Taps is a status check and you have to be in an "alright" location(i.e. your room, academic building, away on an approved permit, etc.) and if you are not "alright" you have to "bone" yourself. Status checks are all conducted on the Honor System, so the onus is on you to be "alright" or "bone" yourself. If you are not "alright" and you don't bone yourself, then you will be rolled if your fellow cadets get wise to what has transpired. We all follow the below Honor Code, it's rather black and white:

"A Cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, NOR TOLERATE THOSE WHO DO."

 

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

That's that movie about boxing right? Because it sure is hell isn't about the Naval Academy.

 

[cisforsmasher]

The USNA has the honor concept and essentially you can be kicked out for any lying, cheating or stealing. If you are a plebe during the summer and lie about doing something, that could be grounds for separation. However, if you actually get kicked out or not is another matter. It depends on the severity of the offense and where you are at. A plebe just starting out will probably have more leniency then a firstie ready to graduate. There should be almost no tolerance for any breaches of the honor concept, however lately (during my time there) breaching the honor concept hasn't been treated as severely as it should (i.e. more people are being retained instead of being booted).

So some jackass of the same last name as me was caught lying about stealing some ones reef points during our plebe summer. Since he was in plebe summer he was given a pass. Remember, you are not sworn into the system until reform. You couldnt be a bigger dirt bag than this guy but he stuck it out till the end of plebe year when he resigned. He also stood plenty of restriction during the year for other various offenses (including one more honor I believe). It was great getting pulled aside in the hallway to get yelled at for stuff i didnt do. Anyway, my senior year, all of the plebes on the football team were caught cheating blatantly on their proquizzes. It is understood that they usually get a little "help," but when they started substituting crappy copies of the test it was bit much to bear. They got off with little more than a slap on the wrist. That being said, you are correct about less tolerance as you move up in the ranks. As you progress through the program you should be able to recognize some more of the gravity involved in honor.

 

[DanMa1156]

^ That kind of crap with the "help" on the pro-quizzes doesn't happen anymore. Saw it in the beginning of my plebe year... definitely been cracked down on. AF freshmen got caught cheating on their form of pro-quizzes last year and ever since then, they've cracked down on that kind of crap with regards to pro-quizzes from what I've seen in my Battallion.