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Fixed wing guy...

Griz882 said:
1. T-bar cyclic is different from everything else in the service. Yes, I know, it only takes a little while “to get used too,” but how will that translate when a student jumps to the TH-73? My consideration is that the control system is different and actually feels different.
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I went from the T-2 Buckeye jet with throttle on the left and stick in the right hand, to the T44 (and then E2) with throttle on the right and yoke in the left hand. The switching of hands dwarfs any change in feel the helo folks would experience, I am guessing. We muddled through expeditiously with it.
 
taxi1 said:
Fixed wing guy...


I went from the T-2 Buckeye jet with throttle on the left and stick in the right hand, to the T44 (and then E2) with throttle on the right and yoke in the left hand. The switching of hands dwarfs any change in feel the helo folks would experience, I am guessing. We muddled through expeditiously with it.
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I agree…there is no doubt that helicopter students will muddle through as well…but is muddling really what we want to do? It is equally clear that F-35 guys have to make the switch from finding the stick between your legs to finding it on the right (or even Airbus guys going from a wheel to a stick on the left).
 
Griz882 said:
I agree…there is no doubt that helicopter students will muddle through as well…but is muddling really what we want to do? It is equally clear that F-35 guys have to make the switch from finding the stick between your legs to finding it on the right (or even Airbus guys going from a wheel to a stick on the left).
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I exaggerated with the muddling. It takes one or three flights before the mind subsumes the swap. Kind of amazing actually that a hand swap isn't more challenging. Try flipping a guitar over and swapping the strumming and the fretting.

Some trained test pilot can weigh in, but my understanding of assessing handling qualities of a plane is that you have to do it early in the process, because pretty quickly the mind sorts out how to deal with it and then, "This isn't so bad."
 
taxi1 said:
I exaggerated with the muddling. It takes one or three flights before the mind subsumes the swap. Kind of amazing actually that a hand swap isn't more challenging. Try flipping a guitar over and swapping the strumming and the fretting.

Some trained test pilot can weigh in, but my understanding of assessing handling qualities of a plane is that you have to do it early in the process, because pretty quickly the mind sorts out how to deal with it and then, "This isn't so bad."
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Again, don’t necessarily disagree…but if that is the metric, why aren’t we training our primary guys in Cessna 152’s? Why not Tecnam piston twins for multi engine advance? In any case, the cyclic isn’t my primary reason for dismissing the R66 as an effective military trainer.
 
Griz882 said:
Again, don’t necessarily disagree…but if that is the metric, why aren’t we training our primary guys in Cessna 152’s? Why not Tecnam piston twins for multi engine advance? In any case, the cyclic isn’t my primary reason for dismissing the R66 as an effective military trainer.
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I keep thinking, If the requirement is only to produce a pilot to the Private Pilot Helicopter ACS standard - perhaps it doesn't matter. The military portion of their development in pilot training won't happen until Advanced.
 
ChuckMK23 said:
I keep thinking, If the requirement is only to produce a pilot to the Private Pilot Helicopter ACS standard - perhaps it doesn't matter. The military portion of their development in pilot training won't happen until Advanced.
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Fair enough. If we are actually looking to save some real tax payer money then why not require that all military applicants come to the service with a ppl (IFR) in hand? I mean the bachelors degree is only a measure that someone can finish something - just replace that with a ppl and start them all at some kind of intermediate.
 
Griz882 said:
If we are actually looking to save some real tax payer money then why not require that all military applicants come to the service with a ppl (IFR) in hand?
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Currently this is basically the situation in the AF - especially ANG and Reserve units...
 
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ChuckMK23 said:
Meaning the direct commission aviator program ?
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Back in the 80’s the army guard used to have what they called a “civilian acquired skills” program for WO helicopter pilots. Basically, if you had a rotary ppl they put you in a unit as a WO1 and trained you up (initially) for your assigned airframe at state level.
 
ChuckMK23 said:
I keep thinking, If the requirement is only to produce a pilot to the Private Pilot Helicopter ACS standard - perhaps it doesn't matter. The military portion of their development in pilot training won't happen until Advanced.
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I think this is where a lot of people are getting confused. This is not designed to replace the HTs. The students doing COPT-R still do a full HT syllabus. They're just not going to Primary. I'm pretty sure the transition from a T-Cyclic is a lot less jarring than the transition from a T-6 and students seem to make that work.

Griz882 said:
3. Most importantly, the weight. The thing that makes Robby’s so popular (and inexpensive) is that they have shaved off every possible pound. At an empty weight of just under 1300 pounds, it is too light to be an effective training helicopter for military purposes. Put it up on a windy day, and you are fighting all the way because it just gets tossed around.
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If there's an appreciable difference between how the R66 handles in the wind and how the 206 handles, I haven't noticed it. Besides, by far the worst aircraft I've ever flown in gusty winds was the AW-139, and that's approaching 15k. I think how a helicopter handles in high winds has a lot more to do with tail-rotor design than gross weight.
 
Griz882 said:
In 2025 alone there have been four or five R66 crashes that have killed five people and injured four or five.
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During that same time there were about that many Bell 505 crashes, too. Keep in mind that there are also fewer than half as many 505s in service.
 
Griz882 said:
2. The rotor system. The new empennage should aid the issue but does not alleviate it.
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As already discussed, this is possible in any underslung rotor system. The NYC 206 crash in April of this year was caused by Mast Bumping. You're right, the problem isn't alleviated - because physics is a harsh mistress - but it's also not unique to the R66.
 
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