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[Gatordev]

Unplanned imc, multiple afcs failures, in a 53. youre now stab off, in the soup, setting up for the approach and your ipad dies.

What does that have to do with paper? Whether you're using paper or an iPad, you're still reading a chart. And I completely agree maintaining that skill is important and it would drive me crazy when I'd go fly with a fleet squadron and H2P I'd be flying with couldn't go 30 miles between two airports without a Fly-To. But whether that skill is utilized on an iPad, a display, or a paper chart shouldn't really matter. And the the civilian answer to your iPad dying is to have a second one (required for my company). That's still cheaper over time than buying pubs every 56 days.

 

[phrogdriver]

A valid question, considering fleet birds are slowly getting upgraded (or already have) moving map, albeit with a galactically worse UI.

@phrogdriver

I've lost track. What is the actual display being used in the GTX? Looks like a G1000 from the bezel, but wasn't sure if it's a 3000.

G1000H Nxi

 

[fc2spyguy]

And i get the "just pick up vectors" argument but it's still nice having confidence of working paper. Even in the t6 glass cockpit you're still not allowed to use the fms until late RI. The first block still reinforces needles

Airlines don’t fly with paper. They have a lot more skin in the game than the military does. Just look at what’s going on with the max. There isn’t a reason to be flying with paper anymore.

In my opinion paper charts distract from your first requirement of aviating. Two iPads and a battery backup in case you got dumb and didn’t charge your iPad. My company rule is you have to start the day at 95% and can’t start any leg below 40% battery.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Airlines don’t fly with paper. They have a lot more skin in the game than the military does. Just look at what’s going on with the max. There isn’t a reason to be flying with paper anymore.

In my opinion paper charts distract from your first requirement of aviating. Two iPads and a battery backup in case you got dumb and didn’t charge your iPad. My company rule is you have to start the day at 95% and can’t start any leg below 40% battery.

No charger in the cockpit?

I agree that paper charts can go away. I haven’t flown with paper charts at my airline, and haven’t flown with paper charts with my reserve gig either.

 

[Jim123]

No charger in the cockpit?

#regionalpilotlife

 

[Gatordev]

No charger in the cockpit?

Recently, our Med inverter died, which powered the AC outlet in the cockpit. Pandimonium would have ensued, but we were professional aviators and just made sure our iPads were charged more regularly than normal. I'm surprised we didn't crash.

 

[thosefreakinATs]

What does that have to do with paper? Whether you're using paper or an iPad, you're still reading a chart. And I completely agree maintaining that skill is important and it would drive me crazy when I'd go fly with a fleet squadron and H2P I'd be flying with couldn't go 30 miles between two airports without a Fly-To. But whether that skill is utilized on an iPad, a display, or a paper chart shouldn't really matter. And the the civilian answer to your iPad dying is to have a second one (required for my company). That's still cheaper over time than buying pubs every 56 days.

true but the chart on a tablet gives you an ownship icon overlaid to the plate that, while giving great SA, doesnt provide the same training a paper plate does. i dont advocate always flying by paper. hell yea the fleet should have that tech. My point is, teaching in the HTs should be old school. teaching the basic principles of VOR tracking via needles, manually loading approaches, and flying off the 6 pack. no automatic turn anticipation, turn vector, highway in the sky stuff. thats fine and dandy for fleet flying but i just think its cheating the stud out of valuable learning.

 

[thosefreakinATs]

and im not advocating professional fleet aviators be limited to paper. that obviously would be dumb. im talking about the <100 hr student getting their initial rating.

 

[squorch2]

Helo bubbas have >100 hours

 

[fc2spyguy]

true but the chart on a tablet gives you an ownship icon overlaid to the plate that, while giving great SA, doesnt provide the same training a paper plate does. i dont advocate always flying by paper. hell yea the fleet should have that tech. My point is, teaching in the HTs should be old school. teaching the basic principles of VOR tracking via needles, manually loading approaches, and flying off the 6 pack. no automatic turn anticipation, turn vector, highway in the sky stuff. thats fine and dandy for fleet flying but i just think its cheating the stud out of valuable learning.

You're legitimately advocating for a skill that no one, NO ONE, will use post training command. That shit is gone, let it go.

 

[Gatordev]

true but the chart on a tablet gives you an ownship icon overlaid to the plate that, while giving great SA, doesnt provide the same training a paper plate does.

Sometimes. Depends on your aircraft. Sometimes the iPad doesn't receive the signal in some cockpits. Or you're like me on my personal iPad and don't pay for the plate position option.

manually loading approaches,

I'm not sure how else you load an approach, or do you mean manually putting in each waypoint of the approach? If you mean the latter, then no, that's actually explicitly a no-no (-53s are an exception, but a small percentage of the fleet).

and flying off the 6 pack. no automatic turn anticipation, turn vector, highway in the sky stuff.

Greater than 90% of the fleet doesn't have a 6-pack anymore. Why would you not use your track vector? It's a tool that's been in aircraft for decades (even the legacy -60s had it).

I get the intent of what you're saying. I pride myself on both being able to read a RMI (or the old school Davtron I had in my plane since I didn't have a RMI) and being able to move around the airspace in my head. I think part of what makes our prefession unique is how historically we've moved around the boat and able to do it with nothing but a RMI (see mine and Rob's posts about Army instrument flying).

But there's a balance as tech moves forward. We don't need to learn NDB approaches anymore because they don't really exist anymore (ASW not withstanding). Having track lines is part of that.

 

[HAL Pilot]

We don't need to learn NDB approaches anymore because they don't really exist anymore

They do overseas. Did the NDB into Pago Pago when the ILS was down two summers ago.

Luckily at Hawaiian is we fly them using a GPS overlay. But we’re still authorized raw data and a RMI/needles. Unfortunately we have a bunch of young FOs who learned on glass and have no clue how the needles work other than “they point”, head is a bearing to and tail is a radial from. They can home but they can’t track. They think VOR and NDB approaches are just another form of RNAV.

The idea of a point to point using a RMI and a pencil (or eyeball) would make their young brains explode.

 

[SynixMan]

paper charts should always be taught and confidence built from the beginning and periodically refreshed. its a fundemental skill that prevents us from becoming overly reliant on "follow the magenta line".

Unplanned imc, multiple afcs failures, in a 53. youre now stab off, in the soup, setting up for the approach and your ipad dies.

we still fly some old shit my man. we still send studs to fly those old needles from 1965

I taught that shit for 3 years in VTs, but I think you're crazy. Paper charts are a student haze-ex and so wasteful it should be criminal. If anything the shitiness of the TH-57 is holding our students back from getting proficient faster so they can actually do useful stuff. Instrument flying is air work/scan, spatial awareness, and systems manipulation. Digital charting helps build #2 soooooo much quicker than "you're the tail of the number two needle, is the head rising?"

Sure, we should teach VOR/TACAN needle basics since nuggets need to fly around the boat eventually. But basing our entire training pipeline off an aircraft that will be retired in 5 years for the Navy and 10 for the USMC? C'mon.

 

[Pags]

I taught that shit for 3 years in VTs, but I think you're crazy. Paper charts are a student haze-ex and so wasteful it should be criminal. If anything the shitiness of the TH-57 is holding our students back from getting proficient faster so they can actually do useful stuff. Instrument flying is air work/scan, spatial awareness, and systems manipulation. Digital charting helps build #2 soooooo much quicker than "you're the tail of the number two needle, is the head rising?"

Sure, we should teach VOR/TACAN needle basics since nuggets need to fly around the boat eventually. But basing our entire training pipeline off an aircraft that will be retired in 5 years for the Navy and 10 for the USMC? C'mon.

Do they still have some version of the old RI simulator app? I remember using that a fair bit to develop my mental map of what the airplane is doing in space wrt the needles.

At the end of the day the needles are a workaround to a moving map not the other way around. The needles represent the best of 40s-60s technology to try and develop a way to represent where the plane is in space. We now have better ways to do that that should be used.

 

[Jim123]

I think good situational awareness is something you synthesize in your brain when you get the pieces of the puzzle, one by one, and you fill in the gaps with good judgment until you have all of the pieces.

A moving map is an awesome tool, but if you always need a God's eye view (like you're playing a video game) then you'll never develop that skill. That part of your brain that figures out where everything is around you and what everything is doing just doesn't get challenged. That electronic display then becomes a necessity for you to have just basic SA, rather than a tool to improve your SA from good to great.

Gotta learn things the hard way before you learn them the easy way, because then when you go to the easy way you'll be better off.