Hot new helicopter/rotorcraft news

[ChuckMK23]

Or….the army will simply plop an FAA rated rotary wing fellows into a tactical cockpit at the school house kind of like an FRS.

Which is kind of what the AF is doing...

 

[Lawman]

Hot take, potentially, but I really don't think the Army needs anything special in their next trainer to prepare MV-75 pilots. The Air Force has gone back and forth multiple times over the last 20-ish years whether CV-22 slots drop to TH-1 or T-1 students. They do just fine with beefing up the syllabus at the FRS with additional sims geared toward either rotary-wing aerodynamics or high-speed instrument flying.

At the risk of spoiling a good deal, while I loved the T-44 going through flight school, I wouldn't consider it particularly essential to my development as a tiltrotor pilot. Add a top-off syllabus to the T-6 to where Instruments culminates in an actual instrument rating and you do some TACFORM and LAT to an L-hour and we'd have been fine.

Tiltrotor aerodynamics are also not covered in depth until MV-22 ground school, and I'd argue the value is far more in understanding the quirks of the V-22 as opposed to anything generically tiltrotor. What I mean by that is the specific FCS control laws when you're in CONV mode and not pure VTOL or Airplane. Or the relationship between our small rotors, hurricane-force downwash, and why it's so hard to actually put a V-22 in vortex ring state. Besides that, flying a good approach to a CAL, pinnacle, or mountainous zone has all the same principles as doing it in a pure helicopter. To the extent that we shamelessly teach HAATS material in our mountain area landing syllabus. Up at altitude...it's an airplane with a single thrust control lever. The T-6 is an airplane with a single power control lever. Ya feel me?

That said, if the Army wants to bring me on as a contractor to teach all this stuff to new MV-75 pilots for $200K a year, sign me the F up.

Keep in mind that a huge hole in our community is instrument flying and tactics, and importantly getting out of this tiny postage stamp of the national airspace system that isn’t real.

Everybody is bemoaning the death of the IE course and some of us couldn’t be happier because of the amount of nonsense taught by old Huey guys was being baked into the foundational understanding and “that’s just how we do it here,” mentality.

Add that to an entire half of our community that either didn’t have or just received an instrument capable aircraft making comments like “you’ll never do instruments to get to the fight.”

The Nightstalker part of me just starts screaming when I hear that or people that don’t understand DVE isn’t just dust at the point of touchdown, or that can’t fathom the tactical advantage weather offers. It should come as no surprise those are the guys calling themselves tactics instructors that really want to get us focused on the pattern basics.

 

[Roger_Waveoff]

Keep in mind that a huge hole in our community is instrument flying and tactics, and importantly getting out of this tiny postage stamp of the national airspace system that isn’t real.

Everybody is bemoaning the death of the IE course and some of us couldn’t be happier because of the amount of nonsense taught by old Huey guys was being baked into the foundational understanding and “that’s just how we do it here,” mentality.

Add that to an entire half of our community that either didn’t have or just received an instrument capable aircraft making comments like “you’ll never do instruments to get to the fight.”

The Nightstalker part of me just starts screaming when I hear that or people that don’t understand DVE isn’t just dust at the point of touchdown, or that can’t fathom the tactical advantage weather offers. It should come as no surprise those are the guys calling themselves tactics instructors that really want to get us focused on the pattern basics.

All good points and instrument flying in general needs to be a significant part of the MV-75 course, to include trail formation and getting out of the Novosel area.

Even without a tanker dragging you at medium- to high-altitude, with the things the MV-75 will likely be asked to do with its increased range there will absolutely be times lack of confidence with IFR could lead to otherwise tactically proficient aviators leaving options on the table. Just ask my previous CO about my shitshow of division trail across the Korean peninsula in mostly hard IMC.

 

[Griz882]

I can’t wait for day someone says….”We need a four seat tilt-rotor training aircraft!”

 

[Lawman]

All good points and instrument flying in general needs to be a significant part of the MV-75 course, to include trail formation and getting out of the Novosel area.

Even without a tanker dragging you at medium- to high-altitude, with the things the MV-75 will likely be asked to do with its increased range there will absolutely be times lack of confidence with IFR could lead to otherwise tactically proficient aviators leaving options on the table. Just ask my previous CO about my shitshow of division trail across the Korean peninsula in mostly hard IMC.

The whole “Flight School West” concept is built around the key point that this thing in the pattern is waste of time.

Problem is because 101 is the sole sucking center of the Aviation universe for us, some division commander is gonna want to see his new toy on his local reservation and that range provides none of the capability that aircraft unlocks. So that dream is now further out of reach.

But it’ll look great in the flyover as the center with the 47 and 64 in formation plodding along above the Parade Field over Campbell.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

I can’t wait for day someone says….”We need a four seat tilt-rotor training aircraft!”

AW-609 to the rescue!

And don't miss out on out July 4th BOGO deals!!!

 

[croakerfish]

This is from the student perspective, but the TH73 is quirky and an absolute blast to fly.
The biggest issue from what I understand is the cost. The 57 is comparable to the ole family honda civic with 250K+ miles. Uncomplicated, still works and doesn't cost much to run.
The 73 is a fancy Mercedes. European, expensive and we're still figuring out how to translate to the user manual.
For every part/ maintenance/or damage done to the 73, it costs exponentially more to fix.

From a safety standpoint:
I've never flown the 57, but all my instructors have stated the 73 is a significantly more challenging platform to auto due to the rotor head. Its a lot more high risk to keep students in a safety margin.

There's no "true" ESIS as its not independently powered from the generators.

With the new "spaceballs helmet" they are issuing everyone and the shape of the overhead panel, its very easy to knock into select overhead switches and shut off the electronics.

Other issues like lack of parts/qualified maintainers/ air craft inexperience can workout itself out with time.

In short, the fancy European helicopter costs more than expected and is worrying the longevity/lifespan of the 73.

That sounds about right, but the -57 cost was climbing fast anyway. The value proposition

The whole “Flight School West” concept is built around the key point that this thing in the pattern is waste of time.

What is Flight School West?

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

Notice no helmets or gloves just headsets.

Also note from tyclic, this is a straight civilian Bell 206B3.

One of the biggest fails of COPT-R or COCO is the commercial civilian aspect.
Everything from working at NAS Whiting Ops while waiting for a slot, reporting in to your Squadron, military officers/instructors who understood directly what was needed in the fleet, not just per syllabus. Interaction with military maintenance personnel, and hangar/ramp procedures.
Talking to the instructors about how something being done on that day's flight relates to operational flying. Even talking to instructors who flew different aircraft or were stationed at different locations, to understand, in my case, Marine Air a bit more before I get to the Fleet.
These programs may get you to your wings, but there is so much more to becoming a Naval Aviator than just "I met the syllabus."

 

[ChuckMK23]

but there is so much more to becoming a Naval Aviator than just "I met the syllabus."

I would argue, "not any more!"

 

[Lawman]

What is Flight School West?

There is an attempt by some to make a decision on an out west location for infrastructure and specifically the 75 training pipeline.

Eustis, Bliss, or even a joint venture at Yuma have been suggested (money on Bliss if it ever happens) to form what is essentially a purpose built flight training program where we take advantage of the ranges and spaces out there not to mention the number of VFR flying days.

Underneath that surface of infrastructure investment is the second line effort to essentially move all our advanced tactical training portions out there, and potentially hide a weapons school lite under the investment. We used to do something similar with Bliss being the Hamets training location where local cadre instructed rotational units prior to going to Afghanistan on mountain flying techniques.

I’m half convinced, not because of the lack of need for it, but I think after seeing what we did and are doing with other things we will fail to properly redesign/adapt our doctrine, nest academics within them, and select the proper initial cadre (who should go through WTI/Nellis/etc) and end up with a weapons school in name only.

 

[Gatordev]

These programs may get you to your wings, but there is so much more to becoming a Naval Aviator than just "I met the syllabus."

Agreed. Something I was arguing 50-some pages ago.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

What is Flight School West?

This is a decades long Army crusade to not have any dependency on the Navy or Marine Corps.
It began with Col. Beckwith.
Charging Charlie Beckwith openly blamed the Marines for the debacle at Desert One during the Iranian hostage rescue attempt. Operation Eagle Claw. His arrogance in the field and and what actually happened when the Marines got to the LZ did not make it into his "I'm the greatest, Marines Suck" book.
Calling President Carter to cancel the mission (they had 5 aircraft with a mission minimum of 4), leaving all aircraft in the field (two are still flying with the Iranian Army), and worse, leaving the dead in the C-130 is nothing short of cowardous and treason. He showed us how NOT to run an op.
He set the stage for much of the current Army's mentality on training and self-sufficiency.

 

[FlyNavy03]

These programs may get you to your wings, but there is so much more to becoming a Naval Aviator than just "I met the syllabus."

You make a great point. Traditional military flight school isn't just about learning to fly the helicopter, it's about all of the other stuff that goes with it: "Sure, you're Nr control in that auto was OK, but your radio call wasn't verbatim per the RWOP." "I'm glad you can talk to me about vortex ring state, but the real question is why didn't you polish your boots?" "So today we're going to start learning how to hover. Have I told you about the time they sent soup out to us during a VERTREP on the carrier?"

You touched on exactly what I think the biggest advantage of civilian training is. Yeah, it saves the Navy a crap-ton of money (in the case of COPT-R, about $230k / student) and training time (~7 months quicker from NIFE to wings while still getting roughly the same number of flight hours as T-6 students are currently getting), but the biggest advantage of the civilian training is that the students get three months where their entire focus is learning about helicopters and how to fly them. Not only that, they get to do things that the Navy hasn't let students do in years - slope landings, hydraulic boost-off landings, VRS, full-down autos to a spot, entering autos from different flight profiles, true solo flight, navigating the DFW Class B helo routes at night unaided, etc. Sure, most of the instructors aren't military and can't talk about what life on a ship is like, but I promise every single one of them is a damned good pilot with an intimate knowledge of their aircraft. Bottom line, the students leave here as better helicopter pilots. Their scores at the HTs prove it. COPT-R students that have completed the HTs have NSS scores that are 5-10 points higher than average. I fully believe that will save lives in the future.

Since Vietnam ended we have lost significantly more aircraft and crew outside of combat than to enemy fire. It's not even close. Even during the height of OEF/OIF (2001-2009) the U.S. lost 375 helicopters in theater, of which only 70 were attributed to hostile fire. That doesn't even touch on all of the training mishaps that took place domestically during that time. I vividly remember four crashes back then involving Navy helos on training flights. They resulted in 15 deaths, three of which were friends of mine. In all four cases, the primary contributing factor was pilot error. Heck, just last month two Black Hawk pilots managed to hit a CRJ, which, if it were an enemy attack, would have ranked number four in terms of civilian deaths (64) on US soil in this century or the last - top three being 9/11 (2,977), OKC Bombing (168), and Pearl Harbor (68 civilians). It wasn't a lack of combat mentality or not understanding how their flight related to operational events that killed them. It was bad piloting.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

Yeah, it saves the Navy a crap-ton of money (in the case of COPT-R, about $230k / student) and training time (~7 months quicker from NIFE to wings while still getting roughly the same number of flight hours as T-6 students are currently getting), but the biggest advantage of the civilian training is that the students get three months where their entire focus is learning about helicopters and how to fly them.

We could save a ton more money if we take the approach Regionals did in the 80s-90s, conditional hiring.
We give you an air guarantee (they called it conditional hire), meaning you will go to the fleet "IF" you successfully complete your COPT-R training on your dime.

 

[Randy Daytona]

You make a great point. Traditional military flight school isn't just about learning to fly the helicopter, it's about all of the other stuff that goes with it: "Sure, you're Nr control in that auto was OK, but your radio call wasn't verbatim per the RWOP." "I'm glad you can talk to me about vortex ring state, but the real question is why didn't you polish your boots?" "So today we're going to start learning how to hover. Have I told you about the time they sent soup out to us during a VERTREP on the carrier?"

You touched on exactly what I think the biggest advantage of civilian training is. Yeah, it saves the Navy a crap-ton of money (in the case of COPT-R, about $230k / student) and training time (~7 months quicker from NIFE to wings while still getting roughly the same number of flight hours as T-6 students are currently getting), but the biggest advantage of the civilian training is that the students get three months where their entire focus is learning about helicopters and how to fly them. Not only that, they get to do things that the Navy hasn't let students do in years - slope landings, hydraulic boost-off landings, VRS, full-down autos to a spot, entering autos from different flight profiles, true solo flight, navigating the DFW Class B helo routes at night unaided, etc. Sure, most of the instructors aren't military and can't talk about what life on a ship is like, but I promise every single one of them is a damned good pilot with an intimate knowledge of their aircraft. Bottom line, the students leave here as better helicopter pilots. Their scores at the HTs prove it. COPT-R students that have completed the HTs have NSS scores that are 5-10 points higher than average. I fully believe that will save lives in the future.

Since Vietnam ended we have lost significantly more aircraft and crew outside of combat than to enemy fire. It's not even close. Even during the height of OEF/OIF (2001-2009) the U.S. lost 375 helicopters in theater, of which only 70 were attributed to hostile fire. That doesn't even touch on all of the training mishaps that took place domestically during that time. I vividly remember four crashes back then involving Navy helos on training flights. They resulted in 15 deaths, three of which were friends of mine. In all four cases, the primary contributing factor was pilot error. Heck, just last month two Black Hawk pilots managed to hit a CRJ, which, if it were an enemy attack, would have ranked number four in terms of civilian deaths (64) on US soil in this century or the last - top three being 9/11 (2,977), OKC Bombing (168), and Pearl Harbor (68 civilians). It wasn't a lack of combat mentality or not understanding how their flight related to operational events that killed them. It was bad piloting.

Reducing time to train by 7 months is quite an accomplishment and badly needed. Congratulations.