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How many Carriers are enough?

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
This may be an incredibly naive question, but how feasible would it be to have blue/gold crew for a carrier, and thus also a blue/gold airwing? This wouldn't necessarily be a 2 crews, 2 airwings: 1 carrier ratio, just some way to keep the strike capability with fewer CVNs.

Actually a better option is a Blue/Gold crew for the Carrier, but change up how Airwings deploy.

For years we have had this stupid model where airwings are attached to a carrier, and some get screwed with back to back deployments, and others spend 5 years not going anywhere. (With logic like, "We just send that carrier on back to back deployments, so everyone gets double the time off." Despite the fact that no one in those squadrons who was on the back to back deployments benefits from the time off as they will have rotated by then.) What we need to do is move to a rotational style of airwing deployment for each coast. When Airwing X is on deployment, Airwing Y knows that they are the next to go, it doesn't matter which ship its going to be on. Then you can at least provide a steady schedule for airwings/squadrons and plan training accordingly. Everyone bitches about integration with the ship, but honestly, we have CV NATOPS, Flight deck procedures, etc for a reason. Everything is standardized, with common verbiage, procedures and qualifications. Tying a specific airwing to a specific ship is poor practice, ineffecient, and shitty for quality of life and predictability.
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
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To do what?

Words...

Unless you are playing devil's advocate, I have a hard time understanding this from a guy that has been there and done that. Have you forgotten? Are you sure you're not a politician? SMH.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
This may be an incredibly naive question, but how feasible would it be to have blue/gold crew for a carrier, and thus also a blue/gold airwing? This wouldn't necessarily be a 2 crews, 2 airwings: 1 carrier ratio, just some way to keep the strike capability with fewer CVNs.

It isn't so much the crew as it is the maintenance requirements, the EFPH use, and so on. The planned 25 year life of the reactors allows for the most part for the crew not to be over-tasked.
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
None
To have a favorable probability of having enough carriers materially ready to wage a sudden dual ocean, blue water war. Unlikely scenario? Infeasible scenario? Dunno, but that's what the 'requirement' is based on from the horse's mouths.

Infeasible? No. Unlikely? Maybe…maybe even probably. Affordability vs. "allowable risk" has no real answers. I certainly don't have one…or a number in mind. But we're now at the point where we can't afford to do the mid-life refueling on CVNs…and we SURELY can't afford to decomm/dismantle them. You tell me what the solution might be.

Unless you are playing devil's advocate, I have a hard time understanding this from a guy that has been there and done that. Have you forgotten? Are you sure you're not a politician? SMH.

Yes, been there and did that…and it rarely was more than sword rattling. Recall that I was a "bookend baby"…first cruise was after the Paris Peace accords, and I surrendered command during "DESERT SHIELD". We could do all of what we did (feed the insatiable COCOM need…in the Atlantic, the Pacific, the Med and the IO) because we had the assets. 26 years after my last "in the cockpit" deployment, none of it really seems to have made any lasting impressions.

You guys and gals have seen different times, met different needs and effected different outcomes. I'm happy for that and proud of you all. Over to you all, I guess, to figure out how to "make do" with what's available in the near-term and the out-years.
 

LFCFan

*Insert nerd wings here*
I don't follow. If you shift to multi-crew options, you need more personnel per ship. Even at an optimistic 1.5x personnel per ship that would result in some fairly shitty optempo for many, you're talking about a net + in required personnel until you decommission at least a third of the current carriers.

If the crew is not ready to operate on deployment, then the carrier is not able to perform its function. Ergo, if the off-crew cannot maintain proficiency while the ship is out to sea, then multiple crews aren't going to increase in-theater presence with fewer ships.

Boomers can do it because their crews are relatively small and they can get adequate training from simulators that can support the sailors in off-crew.

I got the impression from senior leadership that they have and are at least considering multiple cost-cutting options. Not just for carriers, but also for CGs, DDGs, and other ships. I'm pretty sure this was discussed and if it's not being done, there's a good reason for it.

I wasn't trying to say "let's have 11 carriers and 22 crews and airwings" but "Let's have 6-8 carriers and 11 airwings" - but you're right, there would need to be a lot of training support ashore to make that work, and boomers have a more narrow mission. And you're right, this was probably discussed and there are good reasons to not do it.

For years we have had this stupid model where airwings are attached to a carrier, and some get screwed with back to back deployments, and others spend 5 years not going anywhere. (With logic like, "We just send that carrier on back to back deployments, so everyone gets double the time off." Despite the fact that no one in those squadrons who was on the back to back deployments benefits from the time off as they will have rotated by then.) What we need to do is move to a rotational style of airwing deployment for each coast. .

To be fair, enlisted dudes with 5 year orders to squadrons (and the carrier too?) would be there for the back-to-back deployments and then benefits from time off or would suffer from going out again. But, I can see how having a whole airwing where all the pilots below the DH level are nuggets is also not a good thing. I know that the same problem does show up in other parts of the ship/airwing as well.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
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Contributor
It would be nice if we had two, dedicated carriers for east & west coast training.They wouldn't deploy and we could strip them of all the non-essential mission crap and minimally man them. Similar to the USS Lexington in Pensacola. Not only could they support all of the TRACOM & Fleet CQ requirements, they would be available for all the TSTA/C2X/JTFEX stuff as well. Just a thought from a worn out arm chair . . .
 

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
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Contributor
It would be nice if we had two, dedicated carriers for east & west coast training.They wouldn't deploy and we could strip them of all the non-essential mission crap and minimally man them. Similar to the USS Lexington in Pensacola. Not only could they support all of the TRACOM & Fleet CQ requirements, they would be available for all the TSTA/C2X/JTFEX stuff as well. Just a thought from a worn out arm chair . . .
Not sure that is ideal, because a lot of systems get wrung out during these phases of training. Both operators and systems benifit from the training.
 

Uncle Fester

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...Everyone bitches about integration with the ship, but honestly, we have CV NATOPS, Flight deck procedures, etc for a reason. Everything is standardized, with common verbiage, procedures and qualifications. Tying a specific airwing to a specific ship is poor practice, ineffecient, and shitty for quality of life and predictability.

I don't disagree with your basic idea, but boats and CAGs aren't tied to each other any more and haven't been for a while. Also, having seen the ramp up in proficiency during work-ups, I can't agree with the idea of everyone is trained to standards so ship integration isn't that big a deal. Sure, everyone's able to do the basics, but it takes practice to be able to do it safely and efficiently and well, and I'd rather everyone figure that shit out in US waters. A boat coming out of mid-life overhaul, for example, may have a lot of ship's company dudes who've been aboard for 4-5 years and never worked with an embarked air wing.

The Navy painted itself in this corner over the last 15 years by not fighting to keep boats and air wings. I remember when 12 CVBGs was considered the "absolute bare minimum" and I haven't been around all that long, relatively. Now we find ourselves in this spot where we're fighting to keep 10, won't say no to tasking for fear of looking "irrelevant," and wearing down sailors and breaking boats and planes trying to make it all work.

Of course, as mentioned, one solution is to forward deploy more boats and CAGs. Cut out transit times and stay on a higher optempo rather than the workup-deploy-stand down which requires a lot of time trying to regain proficiency. The downside to that is that it costs a LOT more. Huge up-front capital investment to build up infrastructure for the Boat itself (it's a lot more than just a big enough pier and deep enough channel if you want to home-port a nuke), housing and support for the people and facilities for the Air Wing. Higher operating costs to go along with that higher optempo. Higher personnel costs for folks living overseas.

It could be made to work. I imagine that more well-heeled countries like Singapore and UAE might be willing to underwrite those costs in exchange for the political, economic and strategic advantages. But then you'd also have to persuade congresspersons to lose those boats from their districts, and witness the stink the Virginia folks made when they wanted to move one boat down to Florida.

So there's no solution now which won't require either dialing back on deployments (politically unacceptable), spending a lot more money (which we won't get), or building more Boats (and we can barely keep the ones we've got).
 

Brett327

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No two boats/CVWs/CSGs I've been on have done flight ops the same way - major differences. So, the notion that we can plug and play ships and CVWs because "we're standardized" just isn't reflective of reality. Lots of ideas floating around this thread about how we could do business differently with available assets - most of them have been studied and found wanting for one reason or another. Given the way in which we're currently resourced, OPNAV is executing as best it can. With the heightened level of uncertainty and recent unpleasant surprises around the globe, my bet is that the next administration (regardless of party) is going to place renewed emphasis on defense spending. We went through this same peace dividend mentality after the Cold War... right before we were reminded that the world was still a dangerous and unpredictable place by Saddam Hussein, Somalia and the Balkans.
 

lowflier03

So no $hit there I was
pilot
No two boats/CVWs/CSGs I've been on have done flight ops the same way - major differences. So, the notion that we can plug and play ships and CVWs because "we're standardized" just isn't reflective of reality.

That sounds like the standard excuse that always come up when any change is suggested. We used to have different procedures for different squadrons, different procedures for different coasts, etc. We will not be standardized if it isn't enforced, and we keep making excuses. I would wager that we could actually save money, as well as improve quality of life for personnel in squadrons if we moved to a revolving deployment scheme. Oh and with the side benefit of requiring adherence to standards.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Given the way in which we're currently resourced, OPNAV is executing as best it can. With the heightened level of uncertainty and recent unpleasant surprises around the globe, my bet is that the next administration (regardless of party) is going to place renewed emphasis on defense spending. We went through this same peace dividend mentality after the Cold War... right before we were reminded that the world was still a dangerous and unpredictable place by Saddam Hussein, Somalia and the Balkans.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Many Americans still have a sour taste from sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan for majority of the 21st century, and have no desire for America to get caught between groups of people who very clearly are intent on killing each other. People who follow this sort of stuff are also privvy that the DoD has taken their money and wasted a lot of it on pet programs that were ultimately unnecessary. Discussions about cutting benefits were a political third not long ago, but I doubt if anyone loses his Congressional seat for approving the retirement COLA cuts, even if that bill was short-lived.

I think that if any politician wants to increase DoD funding in the near future, he's going to have to convince the public that their tax dollars aren't going to waste on bloated corporate welfare programs that serve the interest of the Congressman's donors more than the defense of the United States. When people hear the Navy say it *needs* 13 carriers or *needs* 300 ships, that sounds like a large number compared to what any potential adversaries have. Whoever's pitching those numbers has to give a good 30 second answer why, or the money won't be there.
 
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