Hudson river collision creates civilian course rules

[fc2spyguy]

Well, here are the proposals for the hudson river post Aug. 8th mishap involving the helo and fixed wing guys.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/E9-22344.htm

Question here, how would someone not from the local area know about this stuff. Say someone was planning a cross country that would go down below the class B airspace just to do some sight seeing, how are they going to know these course rules exist? Would there be something on a sectional telling them to look at a certain place?

I definitely think it's a good idea, just wondering how the info gets disseminated.

 

[nittany03]

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[C420sailor]

I bet LGA tower is going to just love talking with every GA pilot who wants to play over the East River.

I say we just keep it as-is. Let Darwin sort things out.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I definitely think it's a good idea, just wondering how the info gets disseminated.

It's on the NY Terminal Area Chart, with detailed instructions.

This happened because old boy probably didn't have the Terminal Chart, or was ascribing to the "big sky, little plane" theory. I guarantee that the helo pilot knew what the hell he was doing.

 

[D_Rob]

I bet LGA tower is going to just love talking with every GA pilot who wants to play over the East River.

I say we just keep it as-is. Let Darwin sort things out.

Hey dude, the Altman's, who died in the crash, happened to be members of my synagogue back home.

So according to you we should just have no FAA at all and let everyone fly wherever they want and whoever survives is lucky?

Dude, flying can be a nasty business, and the rules are always changing to keep it safer. If flying can be made safer by making more corse rules that might inconvenience some controller, well too bad. That's their job, to keep planes away from each other so this doesn't happen again.

 

[lowflier03]

Hey dude, the Altman's, who died in the crash, happened to be members of my synagogue back home.

So according to you we should just have no FAA at all and let everyone fly wherever they want and whoever survives is lucky?

Dude, flying can be a nasty business, and the rules are always changing to keep it safer. If flying can be made safer by making more corse rules that might inconvenience some controller, well too bad. That's their job, to keep planes away from each other so this doesn't happen again.

On that same note, we don't need the FAA directly responsible for the safety of every piece of airspace in the US. VFR is see and avoid for a reason. If the pilot of the plane wasn't paying attention to what was in front of him and wasn't on the correct frequency. (Both of which seem likely) then the FAA adding more rules isn't necessarily going to help.

 

[loadtoad]

So according to you we should just have no FAA at all and let everyone fly wherever they want and whoever survives is lucky?

Ever heard of Class G airspace? No rules except see and avoid for the most part.

Problem with this case is who knows what was going on in the cockpit. My bet is that somebody or all were not paying attention to flying and taking in the views. Even if everybody was 100% looking outside watching the skies then I chalk it up to a bad day. More rules doesn't always = better.

 

[millerjd]

Both the FAA (From the article) and the NTSB are suggesting a Special Flight Rules Area where you must be checked out before entering

Here is an excerpt from the NTSB email:

"
[FONT=&quot]"The FAA has established procedures for operation within the [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hudson River class B exclusion area that are designed to [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]minimize the risk of collision, but as this accident [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]demonstrates, there are still situations when these [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]established procedures are not enough," said NTSB Chairman [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deborah A. P. Hersman. "Our recommendations suggest [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]operational changes that can make this corridor a safer [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]place to fly."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These new recommendations ask the FAA to revise standard [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]operating ATC procedures for the Hudson River class B [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]exclusion area, and to brief air traffic controllers and [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]supervisors about the circumstances of this accident, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]emphasizing the requirement to remain attentive when on [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]duty. The recommendations also ask the FAA to establish a [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]special flight rules area (SFRA) for the class B exclusion [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]areas near New York City, require vertical separation [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]between helicopters and airplanes in these SFRAs, require [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]pilots to complete specific training on the SFRA [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]requirements before flight within the area, and conduct a [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]review of other airspace configurations where specific pilot [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]training and familiarization would improve safety. "[/FONT]

 

[mmx1]

The rules don't seem that draconian. Segregating north/south flow via the east and west sides (as opposed to by convention), mandatory reporting points, mandatory carriage and familiarization with charts, and a uniform 1300' MSL Class B layer to separate local with transiting traffic.

The only area now under positive control is the East river - for fixed wing only, and as it's an odd shaped region that terminates abruptly (which is how Cory Lidle got himself killed), it's not anywhere near the traffic volume that the Hudson gets.

 

[Njc242]

Hey dude, the Altman's, who died in the crash, happened to be members of my synagogue back home.

So according to you we should just have no FAA at all and let everyone fly wherever they want and whoever survives is lucky?

Dude, flying can be a nasty business, and the rules are always changing to keep it safer. If flying can be made safer by making more corse rules that might inconvenience some controller, well too bad. That's their job, to keep planes away from each other so this doesn't happen again.

well put +1

speaking of the Altman's his son is a member at my country club and his father was too. Great people

 

[phrogpilot73]

Hey dude, the Altman's, who died in the crash, happened to be members of my synagogue back home.

So according to you we should just have no FAA at all and let everyone fly wherever they want and whoever survives is lucky?

Dude, flying can be a nasty business, and the rules are always changing to keep it safer. If flying can be made safer by making more corse rules that might inconvenience some controller, well too bad. That's their job, to keep planes away from each other so this doesn't happen again.

Sorry for your loss, but the rest of your post means crap. Why? Because there's plenty of info out there on how to operate in the area. They didn't broadcast on the self announce freq. Why? Because they didn't read the Terminal Area Chart. Sorry, but the course rules there were already beyond adequate, and this is just more bureaucratic pandering to stay in office/appear to be doing something. Period.

The rules don't seem that draconian. Segregating north/south flow via the east and west sides (as opposed to by convention), mandatory reporting points, mandatory carriage and familiarization with charts, and a uniform 1300' MSL Class B layer to separate local with transiting traffic.

Wow. Sounds like exactly what was already in place. I stand by my statement that this is just an appearance of doing something.

 

[millerjd]

Wow. Sounds like exactly what was already in place. I stand by my statement that this is just an appearance of doing something.

Maybe, but the one thing added for sure is the requirement to undergo specific training on what will be defined as a SFRA and require a sign off from an instructor.

At some point there is only so much you can do, someone will do something stupid no matter how hard you try.

 

[lowflier03]

Maybe, but the one thing added for sure is the requirement to undergo specific training on what will be defined as a SFRA and require a sign off from an instructor.

At some point there is only so much you can do, someone will do something stupid no matter how hard you try.

Don't see how they could enforce that and it's stupid to begin with. TO get your license you have to study and know about different types of airspace. The assumption/requirement is already there to be familiar with your route of flight and all restrictions and airspace along it. Maybe they'll require an extra signature on a flight plan where you so swear that you have had the training. Completely asinine and a waste of everyone's time and money. People kill themselves all the time, this incident just happened to gain huge attention because of the area.

 

[millerjd]

Don't see how they could enforce that and it's stupid to begin with. TO get your license you have to study and know about different types of airspace. The assumption/requirement is already there to be familiar with your route of flight and all restrictions and airspace along it. Maybe they'll require an extra signature on a flight plan where you so swear that you have had the training. Completely asinine and a waste of everyone's time and money. People kill themselves all the time, this incident just happened to gain huge attention because of the area.

Does this mean that you can just pretend to know the rules and that you've been checked off? Of course, but that argument could be made about anything. Like a PPL w/o IFR rating filing an IFR flightplan wont get caught unless you do something stupid, get killed, or ramp checked. It's not like they check when you file...

 

[mmx1]

There's an SFRA for D.C. with an associated mando class due to the density and complexity of traffic. How is this any different?