Intrusive Leadership vs Lawful Order

[EODDave]

I am tossing this out there for everyone to chime in on. If you are a legal begal please say so in your post.


CNATRA has put out an order that states: all students and instructors must pass up the chain of command exactly what they will be doing on leave and liberty (weekends). For leave, an ORM worksheet must be attached.

My question was: If I'm staying at home with the wife and kids, do I have to forward this up the COC. Answer was Yes. Is staying at home such an ORM risk that it needs to be tracked and sent up the chain of command? Are US Naval Officers so uterly irresponsible as to decide what is an ORM risk or not?

So, my question is this. Is this intrusive leadership legal? Is this a lawful order? Will all sailors in the near future have to report exactly what they will do on the weekend. Sir, I am taking a shower at 0800. ORM Risk: May get soap in eyes then slip and fall in tub. At 0900 I will make breakfast. Orm Risk: Bacon grease may cause fire or clog arteries. At 1100 I will mow the lawn. ORM Risk: Blades may detach from mower causing sever bodily injury etc, etc...

I can be trusted to fly a multi million dollar airplane, but not trusted to make a decision about what I do with my family on the weekends?????

 

[Brett327]

Here's the short answer:
Lawful order? Yes
Knee-jerk reactionary response to current "issues" within the training pipelines? Yes
Is it like that in the fleet? No
Should you just suck it up as part of the TRACOM harassment package? Yes

Brett

 

[Banjo33]

He's speaking in particular about our squadron, in general about the CNATRA wide prohibition on most liberty activities we enjoy. Same message that was passed down a few weeks ago. Dave, I'm just as (moreso than most) bitter about this "policy" as you. If I were just checking into the wing and knew I'd have two more years of this BS, I'd have some serious questions to ask myself, but hey..we're a couple months from getting out of here! It's almost over.

 

[Fly Navy]

Best part is, I never know what I'm doing on the weekend, until right before I do it. The week is planned out enough, leave my weekends alone. They like to be random.

 

[skidkid]

Its not much better in the Fleet. We have ORM sheets for leave and long weekends but not every weekend. I keep hoping there will be some new knee-jerk leadeship by decree comes inot favor and they can leave my and my Marines free time alone.

 

[Gatordev]

Here's the short answer:
Lawful order? Yes
Knee-jerk reactionary response to current "issues" within the training pipelines? Yes
Is it like that in the fleet? No
Should you just suck it up as part of the TRACOM harassment package? Yes

Brett

I'll second what Skid Kid said for the Navy side. We have ORM sheets for any leave taken. If it's just a weekend liberty, then no paperwork is required. While the whole process may not be everyone's favorite policy, it has been put out that if you do something that's not on the ORM sheet, it's not to fry you. The ORM sheet is just an initial tool to make sure people are thinking things through. There's plenty of more "policies" as well for other things, but I'll leave it at that.

Short version: It's like that in the fleet now.

 

[EODDave]

Well here is a what if:

What if I report to my superiors that I am staying home with the family. Then on Sunday morning my kids say dad lets drive down to the beach and go swimming. Can I go if I cant inform someone of the change? If I do go, and then get hurt, will I face charges for doing something other than what I said I was going to do?

I asked a Jag officer about this and he was aware of the initial CNATRA message. He was not aware about having to report and track what everyone is doing on a weekend. I asked is there an ORM issue with sitting at home, and if not, then why report it? I also gave him the above scenario and asked him. He is looking into it for me but was hesitant about what was going on. I asked him if it was a legal / lawful order and his response was that the CNATRA legal team must think so, but it is a gray area that is being pushed.

Dont get me wrong, if an individual is thinking about doing something hazardous then by all means run an ORM sheet. But for every weekend? Even if there is no ORM issues involved? Has ORM been taken to an extreme past its intended and original purpose?

 

[KBayDog]

Well here is a what if:

What if I report to my superiors that I am staying home with the family. Then on Sunday morning my kids say dad lets drive down to the beach and go swimming. Can I go if I cant inform someone of the change? If I do go, and then get hurt, will I face charges for doing something other than what I said I was going to do?

Good question (thought of that many times myself), but I have one for you: How many beaches are in Meridian?

 

[TransvestFO]

"I can be trusted to fly a multi million dollar airplane, but not trusted to make a decision about what I do with my family on the weekends?????"

What dirty liar told you that you were "trusted" to fly a military aircraft.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Liberty is a privilege, not a right.

 

[Crowbar]

The Marine Corps has decided now that any time any Marine takes leave (s)he will execute a "Leave Conduct Pledge" along with the leave papers. In essence, the Maradmin said that due to so many deaths during leave, the dudes up top wanted some sort of assurance that we would stop doing things to hurt/kill ourselves during our time off.

http://www.usmc.mil/maradmins/marad...7216aa760bb1525485256fc8005bacb1?OpenDocument

Side note: Are boating and/or water sports on this list of no-nos?

 

[Brett327]

Short version: It's like that in the fleet now.

Well, all I can say is that it's not like that in MY part of the fleet. Of course every T/M/S, squadron, front office is going to be different, but I've never had my off duty activities, weekends, or even leave managed like I've heard about recently. Every squadron handles ORM in a different way. The lesson in all of this is that, by and large, the TRACOM is not like the fleet, so whatever issues you might have with their policies, you would do well to forget about it and focus on things you CAN control like your performance in flight school. Don't become known as the "Sea Lawyer" who goes to base legal to find loopholes or tries to challenge the policy. No good can come of that.

I know this subject has been covered ad nauseum in another thread, yes?

Good times,

Brett

 

[ben4prez]

Liberty is a privilege, not a right.

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
-Thomas Jefferson

unless you were referring to liberty as in not having to work...

 

[Fly Navy]

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
-Thomas Jefferson

unless you were referring to liberty as in not having to work...

Smarta$$ lol

 

[HueyCobra8151]

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
-Thomas Jefferson

unless you were referring to liberty as in not having to work...

1. A. The condition of being free from restriction or control.

B. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.

C. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.

2. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.

3. A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

4. A. A breach or overstepping of propriety or social convention. Often used in the plural.

B. A statement, attitude, or action not warranted by conditions or actualities: a historical novel that takes liberties with chronology.

C. An unwarranted risk; a chance: took foolish liberties on the ski slopes.

5. A period, usually short, during which a sailor is authorized to go ashore.

Touche!!