Intrusive Leadership vs Lawful Order

[PropStop]

I hate intrusive leadership. Take care of you guys, ask them how they are doing, but you should not force yourself into their personal life. If they don't want to talk to you (or anyone else), let them be. If they go home, get drunk with their buddies and play Willam Tell with their crossbows....well, that's stupid, but i can't hold their hand 24-7. Now, however, if an alcohol incident happens, I get my butt dragged up with the rest of the CoC and asked why I didn't stop him from doing this! That, to me, is absurd. You can watch your people at work (and you should) but everyone who joins the Navy is an adult, and if they want to go home and do something stupid, you should not be held responsible for this. Unfortunately this is where i see "Intrusive Leadership" going.

Hell, I go home and do stupid things. I don't think it is right if i get caught doing something stupid that my skipper has to stand tall before his boss. I accept responsibility for my own actions off duty and I refuse to accept responsibility - off duty - for the actions of my peers or those working for me. Now, if we're on det somewhere, working for the navy and we get some liberty, then I *AM* responsible, and I accept that.

 

[phrogdriver]

As far as Big Worm's theory on SGLI--don't worry about LOD findings. You practically have to commit suicide before they find something not line-of-duty. SGLI is a good deal for the money, and you can only get VGLI upon leaving the service if you had SGLI while in.

This order is legal. Legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. Knowing about your people's lives is a good thing. BEING in your people's lives is not. I actually think ORM is a good operational tool. However, by the time the safety Nazis are done, you won't be able to take a leak without routing a risk assessment to your chain-of-command.

 

[Fly Navy]

This order is legal. Legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. Knowing about your people's lives is a good thing. BEING in your people's lives is not. I actually think ORM is a good operational tool. However, by the time the safety Nazis are done, you won't be able to take a leak without routing a risk assessment to your chain-of-command.

Tally! We work for the government, we're the government's b!tches. They're in our life enough. I don't want my job to know exactly what I do in my free time. It is my free time, it is private. There is reasonable "Hey, don't go sky diving unless you tell someone" and completely absurd "Hey, what are you doing this weekend? No, I mean what specifically are you doing?".

 

[zab1001]

Jesus Christ, you guys fvcking talk a lot.

 

[Fly Navy]

Zab, was that a quote from one of your recent flights? The one in your signature.

 

[zab1001]

Just a discussion I had with someone recently. Guess which statement was mine? Useless knowledge annoys me.

back to endlessly discussing a policy no one will be able to change

 

[Brett327]

Just a discussion I had with someone recently. Guess which statement was mine? Useless knowledge annoys me.

back to endlessly discussing a policy no one will be able to change

As a counter to idiotic NATOPS questions like that, some enterprising Prowler guy calculated how many ping pong balls it would take to fill the front and aft cockpits of the jet.

Brett

 

[EODDave]

Pat,

I was the one that asked the question and the XO was looking directly at me and said yes, I want to know what you are doing, even if its sitting at home with the wife and kids.

My going to the beach comment was meant as driving down to Pcola beach. The only beach in Meridian is out at lake okatibee. Three grains of sand mixed with red clay right on the water.

Our sister squadrn just had an AOM yesterday, and this policy was NOT put out. Looks like its just an sqdrn thing. We'll see!

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Liberty is a privilege, not a right.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Brett327]

Are you sure about that?

MARK DATUM! Brett and Steve might actually agree on something! I seem to remember something in Legal school about that. Something about liberty being arbitrarily curtailed without some kind of official due process. I know the reality of the fleet doesn't always exactly mirror the hallowed halls of the JAGs, but it sounds closer to a right than a privilege to me.

Brett

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Marine Corps Order P1050.3H governs regulations for Leave and Liberty:

4. Liberty. Liberty shall normally be granted outside of normal working hours to Marines not required to be physically present for work assignments or for the manning level required for operational readiness. Special liberty during working hours may be granted for its defined purposes when considered appropriate.

...

1. Regular Liberty. Regular liberty should normally be granted from
the end of normal working hours on one day to the commencement of working
hours on the next working day. On weekends, regular liberty should
normally be authorized to commence at the end of working hours on Friday
afternoon until the commencement of normal working hours on the following
Monday morning. For Marines on shift work, equivalent schedules should be
arranged, though the days of the week may vary. Regular liberty periods
shall not exceed 3 days. Public holiday weekends and public holiday days
or periods specifically authorized by the President of the United States
are regular liberty periods.

As you can see, liberty is granted by the command.

If liberty is a right, not a privilege, then I am certainly owed some compensation, because back at the sqdrn I couldn't leave until the work that needed to be done was done...even if we went passed the stated work hours of 0630-1600.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Marine Corps Order P1050.3H governs regulations for Leave and Liberty:

4. Liberty. Liberty shall normally be granted outside of normal working hours to Marines not required to be physically present for work assignments or for the manning level required for operational readiness. Special liberty during working hours may be granted for its defined purposes when considered appropriate.

...

1. Regular Liberty. Regular liberty should normally be granted from
the end of normal working hours on one day to the commencement of working
hours on the next working day. On weekends, regular liberty should
normally be authorized to commence at the end of working hours on Friday
afternoon until the commencement of normal working hours on the following
Monday morning. For Marines on shift work, equivalent schedules should be
arranged, though the days of the week may vary. Regular liberty periods
shall not exceed 3 days. Public holiday weekends and public holiday days
or periods specifically authorized by the President of the United States
are regular liberty periods.

As you can see, liberty is granted by the command.

If liberty is a right, not a privilege, then I am certainly owed some compensation, because back at the sqdrn I couldn't leave until the work that needed to be done was done...even if we went passed the stated work hours of 0630-1600.

Get over yourself. Key words here are "normal" and "normally"....There is no compensation owed to you. Liberty doesn't commence until the work (that needed to be completed for the day) is done. There is no specified amount of time to be allotted for liberty. Unless you have duty, you will get liberty.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

If there is no specified amount of time to be alloted for liberty, then liberty must be granted by an individual with the proper authority.

Therefore, liberty cannot be a right, and must be a privilege.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

That's kind of what I was hoping you'd say. Now, next time you feel it necessary to keep one of your troops from going home for the day (or night), do so. In fact, don't stop at one day, take two or three days of liberty away. We'll see how long you remained commissioned after that.

 

[A4sForever]

.........There is no specified amount of time to be allotted for liberty. Unless you have duty, you will get liberty.

GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH !!! .... (old Navy saying)