Is the M-1 Abrams outclassed now?

[Max the Mad Russian]

Well, tank warfare is far from dead. Just finished business trip in China, being at the plant in the city of Wuhan which is making a machinery tools for grinding the parts of engines, and simultaneosly there have been a group of PLA officers who ordered a machine for tank transmission parts' grinding. They told me that they have strong claim from the top brass to keep the weight of all new tanks and APCs compatible to airlifting since new doctrine of PLA for armor units is constantly demand that some deployable detachment should be 24-hours ready in every armor regiment: at least a company of 9-12 tanks could be delivered to any point of the globe by air. Interestingly enough, a liaison officer that can be deployed within this company should speak English and at least one other European language, say German or French, but there is no claim for Arabic or Russian. They of course didn't tell me about the reason or where they gonna go, but it seems that they rather want to co-operate with NATO than to fight it.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Interesting that the Chinese tanks are having some parts built to NATO standards - which I assume would help exports.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17...O_Standard_For_Defence_Equipment#.WCD4CnArKM8


Also, it looks like lightness ( I hear Rumsfeld) is important in their new mountain tank (VT5) as the new gun is downsized to 105mm with less armor and a smaller engine.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/11/china-unveils-new-tank-for-mountain-warfare/

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Chinese are making their tooling equipment better - all major models are controlled by German Siemens and Japanese Fanuc CNCs that are assembled in China too, so it is not a question that their industry will be able to cope out with the greatest technology challenges, the question is rather how soon...

 

[Randy Daytona]

British Centurion vs 9 Kiloton nuke - distance 500 yards.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Germany's Leopard tanks having problems against modern weapons as well. As someone who grew up during the Cold War with entire tank armies facing off against each other in the Fulda Gap, it is amazing to see how countries have downsized, especially the Bundeswehr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country

http://www.stripes.com/news/germany-s-leopard-tanks-prove-vulnerable-in-islamic-state-fight-1.449278

The reputation of Germany’s vaunted Leopard 2 tank, which forms the mainstay of NATO’s armored forces, has taken a pounding in battles with Islamic State militants in Syria...
At least 10 of the 60-ton main battle tanks have been destroyed during a Turkish attempt to recapture the strategically important northern town of al-Bab, located just 15 miles south of the Turkish border, media reports have said.

The 60-ton Leopard 2, built by Bavaria’s Krauss-Maffei, has been in service since the 1980s. A total of 2,100 were bought by the German army. But after the Cold War, defense cuts caused a sharp reduction in numbers, and only 325 of a modernized version currently remain in the inventory of the country’s panzer units.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Germans won't fight the tank battles in the urban environment. Israelis will. Is their Merkava suited well for it?

 

[Griz882]

Before gong to a Recon unit my USMC MOS 0352, TOW Gunner (never fired the TOW in anger). During our war games it was often not the lack of armor capability that killed a tank rather it was a lazy or poorly trained crew.

 

[Pags]

Germany's Leopard tanks having problems against modern weapons as well. As someone who grew up during the Cold War with entire tank armies facing off against each other in the Fulda Gap, it is amazing to see how countries have downsized, especially the Bundeswehr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country

http://www.stripes.com/news/germany-s-leopard-tanks-prove-vulnerable-in-islamic-state-fight-1.449278

The reputation of Germany’s vaunted Leopard 2 tank, which forms the mainstay of NATO’s armored forces, has taken a pounding in battles with Islamic State militants in Syria...
At least 10 of the 60-ton main battle tanks have been destroyed during a Turkish attempt to recapture the strategically important northern town of al-Bab, located just 15 miles south of the Turkish border, media reports have said.

The 60-ton Leopard 2, built by Bavaria’s Krauss-Maffei, has been in service since the 1980s. A total of 2,100 were bought by the German army. But after the Cold War, defense cuts caused a sharp reduction in numbers, and only 325 of a modernized version currently remain in the inventory of the country’s panzer units.

The article is poorly worded. German built Leopard tanks are being employed by Turkey. The models they are using are older. They're using them in urban combat which is an environment that has always presented challenges to armor. Even in OIF our Abrams suffered casualties in urban environments from RPGs and other infantry weapons.

 

[Flash]

Germany's Leopard tanks having problems against modern weapons as well. As someone who grew up during the Cold War with entire tank armies facing off against each other in the Fulda Gap, it is amazing to see how countries have downsized, especially the Bundeswehr....

The article is poorly worded. German built Leopard tanks are being employed by Turkey. The models they are using are older. They're using them in urban combat which is an environment that has always presented challenges to armor. Even in OIF our Abrams suffered casualties in urban environments from RPGs and other infantry weapons.

Every tank nowadays will be challenged by more modern anti-tank weapons and even IED's so armies will have to be smarter in how they employ them. Even the Israelis and their Merkava 4's, arguably the best tank in service today, were challenged in the 2006 Lebanon war. The Israelis went back and took a look at what they needed to do better and in Operation Protective Edge when the Israelis went into Gaza in 2014 their tanks were better protected and performed accordingly. I am going to hazard a guess that the Turks probably haven't incorporated some of the latest lessons of armored warfare from the past 15 years into their doctrine and operations yet.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

arguably the best tank in service today

Neither suited to airlifting fleet, nor to an amphib LCACs' dimensions. Yes possibly 4th Merkava is the best tank in service, but rather as a moveable fortress on homeland soil. Though, maybe this is the leading role of any main battle tank nowadays, and air/amphib mobility is secondary demand in essence. Again as in the time of a Fulda Gap, it's time to maintain constantly deployed armor units where they are supposed to fight, instead of limiting the main tank design by this or that lifting platform. New US Army armor branch in Poland is supporting this view to some degree.
BTW, the armor faculty in Belarussian military academy is closed. Belarus as the Russian ally is the neighbour to Poland, but evidently has no serious plans to maintain the tank force as before.

 

[Flash]

Neither suited to airlifting fleet, nor to an amphib LCACs' dimensions. Yes possibly 4th Merkava is the best tank in service, but rather as a moveable fortress on homeland soil. Though, maybe this is the leading role of any main battle tank nowadays, and air/amphib mobility is secondary demand in essence.

The Merkava's dimensions and weight aren't all that much different at all compared to the M1 or most other western main battle tanks, none of which are really easy to transport. The only country that regularly does transport MBT's is the US, which has nearly 300 of the cargo aircraft that can actually transport MBT's and a fleet of cargo ships on call that can do the same to every corner of the globe.

 

[Randy Daytona]

The article is poorly worded. German built Leopard tanks are being employed by Turkey. The models they are using are older. They're using them in urban combat which is an environment that has always presented challenges to armor. Even in OIF our Abrams suffered casualties in urban environments from RPGs and other infantry weapons.

Urban environments are tough on tanks. Not sure if the Turkish Leopards have slats, reactive armor or anything extra at all. I was more surprised by the extent of cuts to the Bundeswehr tank force.

Found this webpage for those interested in historical armored vehicles.
http://tanknutdave.com/

 

[Randy Daytona]

Looks like the Abrams is adding reactive armor.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...n-europe-are-getting-explosive-reactive-armor

 

[Randy Daytona]

An article on the M-103 which had a limited production run for the US military - used more by the Marines than by the Army. The last heavy tank produced by the US, it mounted a 120mm main gun when most US tanks had a 90mm or 105mm.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-m103-was-americas-tiger-tank-19970

 

[Randy Daytona]

News from Germany yesterday.

Germany beefs up tank fleet with $832M acquisition

the Bundeswehr stands to get 104 used Leopard 2 battle tanks out of storage that manufacturer Krauss-Maffei Wegmann will upgrade under a contract with the German Defence Ministry from the A4 configuration to the newest A7V standard. The latest package includes improvements in the areas of information technology, armaments and armor.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/germany-beefs-up-tank-fleet-with-832m-acquisition