Touche, good point.
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I've been converted
- Thread starter S.O.B.
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Touche, good point.
So what? Doesn't matter. Stupid policies are stupid policies. I'm not taking one Party's side on this. Obama himself is on the side of stupid policies, as are many Democrats today. But Republicans have done stupid things too. The IDEA matters, not the Party.Ummmm, where have you been the last few years?
And if I remember correctly, Republicans were in office 7 out of the 10 years of the 70's.......just saying.
Wrt Walter Reed, etc. While I have never been there, a good friend of mine recently finished Med School with the Navy, and has had extensive experience with the facility. Suffice it to say, the news reports were blown WAY out of proportion, and some really good people lost their jobs over something they shouldn't have.
I highly doubt the reports of how un-supplied troops are in theater. The information seems suspect, especially coming from a media that understands nothing of military acquisition, logistics, tactics, or strategy. They seem to come from the mindset of "even one life is too much of a cost" which is utter BS.
And there was an old movie (forgot the name) - not that movies are true, but the movie itself was pretty old (late 50s?) - of Americans in a German POW camp where one of the downed pilots had used a matchbox to create a "time bomb" to destroy a train... you might say he improvised a way to create a device that was explosive.
It is common knowledge only if you believe everything in the press or take credible military reports to the extreme. As stated above, even in the early cases it was simply guys not having all the very best mom and dad thought they should have. If our guys don't have cutting edge stuff it is because eval and procurement is so slow. Better stuff is almost always available in the civ world. A college dorm has more bandwidth then a DDG. Our fire control systems could be run on a lap top but they take up entire consoles on a ship. It is old news. Try touting the good "new" news like you tout the old news.Yea, I'm a complete and utter tool for quoting what I've read in the news, though!These are things that are pretty much common knowledge and occurred in recent years. I wouldn't call it "old" news. Times may have changed and the situation may have gotten better, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a time when inadequate hardware and ill-equipped troops weren't being sent over, because it *was* all over the news.
Here is an idea for you since you keep speaking out of place. I only post it in public because other guys on the forum can benefit from the advise as well. We have guys here that have been there and done that. They KNOW what they are talking about. You can respectfully disagree with some conclusions they draw, even on their own experiences, but their first hand experiences are truly more important then anything you see on CNN. That may be hard for you to believe, but it is so. Those guys on TV, they are reporters, they earn money getting ratings. The guys that have BTDT stay alive by knowing what they are talking about. Survival is their reward for knowing reality, not a new gig behind a desk as MSNBC. So, if you have a thought about the deployment of Marines without the very best gear, I suggest a question something like this. "Hey, what is up with all those reports about you guys deploying without armor and crappy scopes on your rifles?" Let the guys that know their shit speak first, then your can offer you penny ante (relatively speaking
) opinion.phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
What wink says is very true, and good advice to boot. On top of that, a lot of news reports came out about Dragon Skin armor, and why parents were buying it and how it was so much better than what was being issued in theater, and OH THE HORROR!! What never makes it into the news is the Army tested Dragon Skin and found it to be substandard to the current issue SAPI plates, and that's why they weren't issuing it. To top it off, when the Army releases it's tests - the company claims they're lying (because they don't want their profits to drop off), and the news makes it out to sound like the Army is trying to cover something up. Here's a good example.
Now that I'm working as a civilian on the procurement side of the house, I can say that the government employees who oversee procurement DO want the best for us. So, I tend to side with the idea that we have the best we can get right now.
Here's something to digest (that the news won't publish). Vietnam - 58,000 dead/missing in 9 years. Iraq - 4,000+ dead in 5 years. You do the math. Either the gear is better, the training is better, or both.
Now that I'm working as a civilian on the procurement side of the house, I can say that the government employees who oversee procurement DO want the best for us. So, I tend to side with the idea that we have the best we can get right now.
Here's something to digest (that the news won't publish). Vietnam - 58,000 dead/missing in 9 years. Iraq - 4,000+ dead in 5 years. You do the math. Either the gear is better, the training is better, or both.
I'm very curious to get your input. I saw on (I believe) FutureWeapons that they did a test and the Dragon Skin handled a grenade and all sorts of impacts that they said Interceptor might not. A few other shows, to my knowledge, did tests that they said showed DS as superior.
However, I've learned not to take anything like this for granted. So, as Wink said, I'm just asking what your experience in that area has taught you.
Clearly at the very least the current stuff does its job.
WRT to Dragonskin, as I understand the big weakness was that the plates did great when placed on a flat surface but less great when on a curved surface (like oh a human chest). There is tons of money available for OIF stuff, each squadron has a chance to open purchase tons of stuff at least at most levels it seems as though cost isnt factored in too much, if it was better we would have it.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Luckily, I have no first-hand knowledge of being shot with EITHER the Dragon Skin or the Interceptor.
Think about it this way - Grenades = Fragmentation. So DS may be superior against fragmentation (and based on it's design, I'd say that's a fair assessment). HOWEVER, the Interceptor + SAPI is designed to protect against both fragmentation AND small arms (I believed they tested it up to 7.62mm). Obviously, if you wrap yourself in Kevlar head-to-toe and it's thick enough, you'll be good for both. I'll take my chances with fragmentation if I have a guarantee that my vitals are protected by a PROVEN system. I think the Interceptor + SAPI is proven, whereas the DS is not. The tests from the Army showed that after one round, the armor was less effective, whereas with the Interceptor - it could survive the first shot. My money is on the interceptor.
Now if they could only integrate some of the quick-release stuff from other systems...
I don't have a lot of experience in military equipment or weapons testing, but from what little I know it is usually very thorough and rigorous.
You have to remember a few things, the people ultimately in charge of testing much of the equipment are service-members, and they obviously have a stake in making sure that the right equipment gets to their fellow soldiers in the field. Also, there is a lot more to the testing than just one or two experiments, they put it through all sorts of tests in all sorts of environments, from freezing rain to sweltering heat and humidity. They are looking at the complete package, not just something that will do well against a fragmentation grenade.
I have watched with passing interest the whole Dragon Skin controversy. While many of the people who are backing it's use are well intentioned, I am not sure they are well informed. And I am also a little uncomfortable with the prominent role that the business plays in the controversy, it is a business and more orders means more business and more money for the orders, you can't overlook that either.
While not everything that military issues is perfect, shocking as it may seem, I seriously doubt that the Army testing establishment and leadership is going to be deliberately negligent.