Clux4
Banned
There is a little bit of misinformation here. The list being withheld is of DOD nominees, Solomon Watson to be the Army General Counsel and Jonathan Woodson to be Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs.
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JFCOM getting whacked???
- Thread starter helolumpy
- Start date
There is a little bit of misinformation here. The list being withheld is of DOD nominees, Solomon Watson to be the Army General Counsel and Jonathan Woodson to be Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs.
Nope.
Basically those two are held up by other members. Even if they pass that hurdle, Webb's blanket hold-up will prevent them from moving forward. Webb's actual quote:
"JFCOM getting whacked??? This really shouldn't impact folks out there on the pointy end,..."
That's really the point - what they do arguably doesn't impact the pointy end all that much...too much tail & not enough tooth.
That's really the point - what they do arguably doesn't impact the pointy end all that much...too much tail & not enough tooth.
You can't command or control the 'pointy end' without JFCOM though.
Any RFF for conventional forces is sourced by JFCOM (J3).
Every JTF is trained (therefore is certified) by JFCOM (J7/JWFC).
All military remains are recovered by JFCOM (JPRA).
All POW repartriations are done by JFCOM (JPRA).
All Joint Doctrine is coordinated by JFCOM (JWFC).
Every JTF stood up in the past 5 years is been immediatley augmented by JFCOM (JECC).
Every JPRC/JSRC is trained and augmented by JFCOM (JPRA).
Every COCOM has classified research work done by JFCOM (JWAC).
Most JTF's (and all JSOTFs) have had comms provided initially by JFCOM (JCSE).
Every JTF has had the Joint Visitors Bureau stood-up & augmented by JFCOM (JPASE).
Most of the recent doctrinal concepts (good and bad), for example EBO and Operational Design, were codified at JFCOM (J9)
Joint C-IED programs and training are coordinated through JFCOM (KNIFE)
Most of these subordinate commands will probably not be killed off, but once JFCOM goes away, who will these joint commands report to? Most likely the Joint Staff.
So, while if you are at a tactical unit, then JFCOM going away may not be readily apparent, but to say that it's all tail and not enough tooth is a bit ignorant of what JFCOM actually provides to the joint force.
JFCOM is a unique Functional Combatant Command that supports all the other Combatant Commands. They have unique roles that are not replicated elsewhere.
They have a lot of contractors, but they are based in the experimentation side of the house, it's better to employ contractors than a lot of GS employees. This way when the experiment is cancelled, you can get rid of the contractors very easily. GS employees are here forever!
"Overpaid" government employees v. Relatively expendable contractors.
If the DoD is looking to cut, it's pretty obvious where they're gonna go for that. The overhead must be pretty high, and the government is frantic trying to find ways to cut defense. Look at the considerations for having civilian contractors onboard amphibs and such. They're getting a bit overzealous with some of this.
Even if JFCOM is cut, someone else is going to take up all those responsibilities. It could end up being more expensive/inefficient in the long-run to get other commands to do these jobs, especially if they're already overworked with other responsibilities. The cuts will only save in certain areas, and won't be as effective as it may seem on paper.
If the DoD is looking to cut, it's pretty obvious where they're gonna go for that. The overhead must be pretty high, and the government is frantic trying to find ways to cut defense. Look at the considerations for having civilian contractors onboard amphibs and such. They're getting a bit overzealous with some of this.
Even if JFCOM is cut, someone else is going to take up all those responsibilities. It could end up being more expensive/inefficient in the long-run to get other commands to do these jobs, especially if they're already overworked with other responsibilities. The cuts will only save in certain areas, and won't be as effective as it may seem on paper.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Overpaid GS that can't be fired... Two of the biggest misconceptions out there.
I made more as an AD Capt, then I do as a GS. The PD (Position Description) for my GS billet pretty much requires a former Naval Aviator & FAC, with some instructor quals. Which means WHOEVER was going to take this job was going to take a pay cut. The contractors I work with (that do the same job I do) get paid more.
As for "can't be fired" - we can be. It just takes a lot of effort/documentation. My boss (a GS-13) is well aware of this - and would probably shit can me if I turned into a big turd. Of course, I'm setting myself up to roll into his billet when he retires (although since he was doing this on AD for 3 years, followed by 8+ years as a GS - I doubt he's retiring any time soon).
Just a random question. Are you getting Federal Retirement credits too then, and your military in with those? Or hoping the reserve thing gets you more before you transfer?
I think most GS jobs, give credit for prior military service (towards your GS retirement) but if you didn't serve long enough to get your military retirement that is all you get. What I am wondering is if you can double dip those years? If you did a full (all AD, or split with reserve) 20, can you use those years towards your GS retirement and get your military retirement?
One thing you forgot to include is the long-term cost of a GS versus a contractor. For a GS, the government must provide a career path, health care and retirement plan. These over the life of the GS employee equate to some serious coinage.
Contractors cost about twice what a GS employee does in today's dollars. However, the government is not on the hook for the long-term costs of the contractors. That means that while contractors cost you more today, in the long run, they may actually be cheaper.
I think the only way your military time counts towards a federal civilian retirement is if you don't take the money from the military retirement, or you don't do 20 years and don't qualify for a military retirement anyways. I believe if you retire from the military then get a gs position, you can retire at the appropriate age/time, but none of the military time counts towards that gs retirement. Of course, that's just all thirdhand knowledge, so take it with a grain of salt.
HA! You made a funny! Sigh, seriously though, that just ain't true at all. I bet the passing of JFCOM will be a fart in the wind to the COCOMs, a momentary unpleasantness that will soon pass.
They were/are middlemen, the Joint Staff did that function for years and did it well, all JFCOM often did was pass some paperwork back and forth just delaying the process and added nothing.
Someone else could just as easily do it. They may not get a gold star for doing a super-awesome job but I am sure they will survive.
JPRA and it's predecessors have been around much longer than JFCOM and they will be long after, they did good work before JFCOM was around and they will still do good work after it is gone.
So 'jointness' will just fall apart? Why can't all that by handled by big DoD or some of the services?
Just how many research entities are there in DoD? Plenty, they will easily take up the slack.
Again, things that can be divvied up and taken on by existing entities/agencies/services.
Or maybe big DoD, all the better to cut out some of the bloat that exists in the larger defense bureaucracy and joint commands.
Much of the joint stuff that was a problem years ago is now second nature to COCOMs and the services, they don't need JFCOM to tell them how to do things now.
The whole idea that the the military will suffer because a command, which hasn't existed very long at all, might go away is just hard for me to believe, especially when I had first-hand experience with some of the supposed 'benefits' JFCOM brought to the table. Other places that did parts of their job, and did it well, will step in and assume those roles easily again. They were often more of an impediment than a help in my little corner of the world and often added absolutely nothing but time. The Joint Staff and others did many of the functions that JFCOM slowly assumed as they grew but with no corresponding reduction in personnel or real estate from the entities that they took the duties from. It often added just another layer in the bureaucracy with little to no benefit, much like STRATCOM has in some areas.
When you have more contractors than military and civilians the place just begs to get looked at and cut. A lot of those contractors might be on the experimentation side of the house nut I can tell you from experience that many are not. They are occupying seats that belong to someone in uniform or a civil servant, staffing DEPORDs and coordinating those RFFs you talked about. Contractors have their place in government but there is now an enormous amount of waste with how many are utilized now. From my first-hand experience the average contractor ends up costing the government 2-2.5 times more than an equivalent GS, the supposed savings you get from not paying pension, health care and other benefits is lost when you keep them on for longer than many GS types stick around (and while the benefits are good they are nowhere near as good as the military's). The 'cheap' part of a contractor isn't cheap anymore when you keep them on the payroll for 5-15 years or more.
There are also plenty of government workers in DoD that are not GS's but fall under a different laws when it comes to employment, and it is easier to hire, fire and even deploy them.
And when I got my pay 'equaled' when I became a government civilian I took home about 30% less net every month, health care and some retirement comes out of pocket and it ain't cheap.
Like I already said above, those supposed 'savings' often are lost when you keep those contractors on for many years. An O-3's job being done by a contractor costing $250k is a waste when that contractor parks his ass there for 10 years, especially when he does a fraction of the work the LT next to him does.
If you separate from the military you can buy into the government retirement system called FERS. You pay 3% of your base pay over your entire time of military service and you get those years credited to you for civil service retirement (8 years of service as an O-3 would probably be about $8k, very roughly). If you retire you do have the option of buying into the system but no one ever does because you lose your military retirement which is much more generous.
FERS is 1% towards a pension for each year and matching TSP up to 5% (federal law enforcement, and I think federal fire fighters too, get 1.7% a year for their pension for the first 20 years), so 30 years would get you a 30% pension. There is no penalty if you are in the reserves and your clock does not stop if you are mobilized, so you can double-dip that way too.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Yes. Reserves won't get me a whole hell of a lot when you compare it to AD time. Even if you retire at 20 from the reserves - your actual retirement pay will be based on points, so you could be getting the equivalent of a guy who "retires" at 13 years.
Fixed it for you. And to answer your question, yes you can double dip.
Government doesn't provide health care for GS. We have it deducted from our pay. Some of them are the same as other civilian jobs, some of them are available only to government employees. But they don't provide free health care like in the military. We also pay into our retirement system, unlike in the military. Although you are correct - we'll be a higher cost overall...
Yeah - I'd take that third hand info with something smaller than a grain of salt, because it's not correct.
Here's how military time and a FERS (Federal Employee Retirement System) work:
First, if you do 20 in the military - you can take your military pension and roll in on a GS job. If you want your military years to count towards your FERS retirement, you can forfeit your military retirement and buy into the FERS system. Then you will instantly be available for a FERS retirement when you leave. Of course, now you won't see any retirement pay until age 57.
Second, if you do less than 20 in the military and remain in the reserves - every day of ACTIVE DUTY (not drill dates, but ADOS orders, your initial stint on AD, etc) can be credited towards your FERS retirement. Again, you have to buy in - and once you do you'll be instantly eligible for a FERS retirement. Here's where the reserves are a scam - that AD time still counts towards your reserve retirement, even if you buy in. So yes, you can double dip. You'll get your FERS retirement at 57 and your reserve retirement at 60.
Third, if you do less than 20 in the military and don't remain in the reserves - you can buy in with all your active duty time.
Finally, if you have at least 3 years on AD (I think, I don't remember the number of years it is) and get a GS job - you build up leave at 6 hours/pay period vice 4. Makes it nice when you're trying to go on vacation and have been at the job less than a year.
The buy in for your retirement is a painful process, I'm doing it right now. First, you have to send a form to DFAS to calculate EXACTLY what you earned on active duty, then send that form into the Feds for them to calculate the percentage you must pay. I believe it's 3 percent. Either way, I hear it's about 10K dollars to buy into my retirement and I can pay it lump sum or have it deducted from my pay. Once I do that - I will be eligible for a FERS retirement (to be fully vested in a FERS retirement, you have to have 5 years of qualifying time, I'll have 10 and some change).
EDIT - and what Flash said, too.