Many parts of the barrier has been moved back because of the Israeli Supreme Court decision.
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Jimmy Carter's War a.k.a. the Arab-Israeli Conflicts
- Thread starter Afterburner76
- Start date
631 BC and minus (as far as lasting permanance, I don't think that's particularly long term for the BCs). Spartan citizens through eugenics had a negative birthrate for much of their history.
I'm not trying to draw exact correlation between the two, but it is interesting to see a dwindling population of Spartan citizens contrasted with an explosively multiplying helot population over time and then alarming to look at Israel and see that the Arabs will soon vastly outnumber Jews.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Yeah, I think so, too ... even though I never try to explain what someone else "meant" -- it never works out too well ....
That is exactly what I was trying to say. I could care less if the Israeli's built a wall, just don't do it on what is internationally recognized Palestinian land.
The point being ... the present lands under discussion were never intended to be "Palestinian" or "Arab", even though the most prosperous Arabs in the region (normal people -- discounting corrupt leaders and oil sheiks, of course) have traditionally worked and lived in the "Jewish" areas of control.
While you are taking a history study break
The 1949 armistice line, or the 'Green Line', has long been recognized by most as the defined borders of Israel and Palestine, including by the US. That is notwithstanding everything sles before or after. We don't recognize several things the Israeli's claim, including their ownership of all of Jerusalem. Why do you think our embassy is still in Tel Aviv?
Just as a follow up, I'd be interested in hearing your qualms with specific things mentioned in the link. What facts or "propaganda" would you label as false or imprecise? What do you agree as being legitimate data? Again...looking for specifics...
Maine Vaulter
USMC Candidate - Air
THIS IS SPARTA!!!!
Uhhhhhh .... lemme guess.
Why doesn't the U.S. sack up and support the Jewish capital being located in Jerusalem ..... you know, Jerusalem, where the original Jewish capital was built by King David 3000 years ago??? And where the Western Wall is .... ??? The last remaining wall of the ancient Jewish Temple??? THAT Jerusalem???
Uummmm .... ummmmm ..... could it be: Oil?? Oil and Arab politics??? Terrorist threats from Hamas and others if we recognize the Jewish capital as Jerusalem??? Am I even close ??? Am I warm???
You stubbornly continue to insist that there are Arab "Palestinians", i.e., as in an ethnic or national entity. You could not be more wrong. You obviously (and not too many things are obvious) do not know why the "Palestinians" have continually been used as a foil by the rest of the Arab world in an attempt to skewer the Israelis while deflecting attention from their own miserable, medieval, hateful regimes. Those same regimes that actively supported the "Final Solution" of the Nazi's during WW2??? And perhaps we should probably overlook nasty little details such as when Haj Amin al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem broadcast over Radio Berlin on March 1, 1944:
"Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you..."
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the Australian (or was it Austrian??) Corporal, Berlin, November 1941
And whatever did happen to that 1949 line you referenced, anyway??? Oh, that's right .... the Arabs violated it again and again ... but who's counting, yes??
The 1949 armistice agreements had not only failed to pave the way to a permanent peace, but they were also constantly violated by the Arabs. In direct contradiction of the UN Security Council resolutions, Israeli and Israel-bound shipping was prevented from passing through the Suez Canal; the blockade of the Straits of Tiran was tightened; incursions into Israel of terrorist squads from neighboring Arab countries became a regular occurence; and the Sinai peninsula was gradually converted into a huge Egyptian military base. ALL in direct violation of the 1951 UNSC resolution.
After the Tripartite Pact was signed between Egypt, Syria, and Jordan for the express purpose of militarily surrounding and eliminating the Jewish state, the Israelis gave them a bloody nose in the 1956 war and took Gaza and all of the Sinai, stopping just short of the Suez Canal.
The rest, as they say, is war & history .....
Flash, you're a smart guy -- but you've totally blown it here. Debating this with you is as productive as talking to a wall. You haven't done your homework and you don't know what you're talking about ---- I know you don't like to hear that, but you've bought into the easy and "internationally recognized" U.N. Kool-Aid bullshit, and you seem to like the taste of it.
You are a lost cause on this one, I am afraid. You flunk history class.
Why thank you, for calling me a smart guy.......
Unfortunately, I think you are the one that is being selective about looking at history in this case. If you are bringing up history from 3000 years ago, why don't we sell back Manhattan to the Native Americans for some beads and blankets, or give New Mexico and Texas back to the Mexicans? To bring that up is a cop out. As for us backing down to Hamas threats, they didn't even exist 20 years ago and we have resisted Israeli entreaties to move our embassy for a lot longer than that. Would it cause some difficulties with our Arab allies? Certainly, but we have pissed them off time after time and yet they still hanging out with us. Like or not, we need their oil.
As for who is Palestinian, or Jordanian/Syrian/Kuwati/Bahrani/Saudi. Well, as you so subtly alluded too these countries and their citizens did not even exist 100 years ago. But today the citizens of those countries hold passports and identify themselves, proudly in many cases, as Jordanian/Syrian/Kuwati/Bahrani/Saudi. And the world happens to recognize 'Palestinians' today, just like Israelis (we recognize both, isn't that good enoguh for you?). So, whether you like or not, that is the way of the world nowadays.
As for Israel's existence, it owes it to some of those same resolutions that you are so dismissive of, like the the UN Partition Plan in 1947. There is plenty of history up to that point, like the Balfour Declaration that helped legitimize the Zionist movement and its desire to create Israel again, but that was the point at which Israel became a recognized country in the eyes of the world. It was in that same partition plan that Arab rule over Palestine was recognized.
As for the history lesson, are you forgetting some things? Don't you remember when we sat down with a former terrorist to talk peace between Israel and the Arabs? Someone who led a group that killed 91 soldiers in a hotel bombing and publicly hung soldiers captured off the streets? And a Nobel Peace Prize winner to boot? That would be this guy:
Menachem Begin, leader of Irgun from 1943/1944 to 1948.
One thing I learned from studying history, it is messy and inconvenient. Believe it......
And with that promising start ... you only went downhill from there in the proverbial death spiral ...
It's amazing (some would say much less complementary things than "amazing") that any clear thinking individual could juxtapose the former head of the Irgun alongside the Grand Mufti and the former Austrian Corporal to try and justify one's position ... why, one would only expect such demagoguery to emanate from ignorance, arrogance, Arabism, or anti-Semitism. Or a combination of all .... but that would not apply to you, I am sure.
And yet, you continue to regurgitate the pop-politics of compromise and "enlightened" positions that pro-Arab activists in the U.N. and elsewhere use to buttress your weak arguments .... ???? With no acknowledgment that the Arabs have violated every third party "plan" put forth to settle the "Jewish" question??
And Indians and beads??? Wow ... are you are so freakin' PC that you can't even bring yourself to say "Indians"?? "Native Americans" .... ??? WTF is that??? I"M A FREAKIN' NATIVE AMERICAN, eh ??? And of course, this attempt at diversion has nothing to do with the subject at hand -- how typical when one has lost the argument. Back to Middle East bonehead history 101 for you ....
Semester Grade for Flash =
(also means: I am disabled; communicate with me)
Probable teacher comments:
He tries to play well (sometimes to a fault) with all the other children, and becomes especially animated if he can discount their color, race, religion, national origin, or sexual orientation.
It's just a damn good thing for you that this fine website is not:
"ISRAELI AIR WARRIORS -זרוע האויר והחלל
('Cause if it were --- I could find several willing volunteers who would gleefully participate in a complete reversal of your circumcision and wave any insurance co-pay due on your part.)
I think this discussion illustrates several of the fundamental truths of modern Middle Eastern geo-politics.
1. The picture has become so clouded...intentionally as A4's suggests and historically convoluted (as Flash and A4's suggest), that a negotiated, political solution is no longer possible.
2. The only way for the US to "win" in the Middle East, is to be able to divorce ourselves from it.
3. The only way to divorce ourselves from it, is to develop a coherent energy and technology plan, not primarily dependent on Middle Eastern Oil. It has been time for 30 years. When will it happen?
Oh...and instead of Foxtrot....I was suggesting...
1. The picture has become so clouded...intentionally as A4's suggests and historically convoluted (as Flash and A4's suggest), that a negotiated, political solution is no longer possible.
2. The only way for the US to "win" in the Middle East, is to be able to divorce ourselves from it.
3. The only way to divorce ourselves from it, is to develop a coherent energy and technology plan, not primarily dependent on Middle Eastern Oil. It has been time for 30 years. When will it happen?
Oh...and instead of Foxtrot....I was suggesting...
And with that promising start ... you only went downhill from there in the proverbial death spiral ...
Back to Middle East bonehead history 101 for you ....
Semester Grade for Flash =FOXTROT
(also means: I am disabled; communicate with me)
Probable teacher comments:
He tries to play well (sometimes to a fault) with all the other children, and becomes especially animated if he can discount their color, race, religion, national origin, or sexual orientation.
Well, I guess I will have to toss that grade in the pile with all of those Elementary, Middle and High School grades and teacher evals........college was a little different. And the funny thing, many of my professors seemed to like my study of history, showed in my grades. And my school was not what you would call a bastion of liberal thought......
Oh, and my job.......is knowing the current events of that area. Funny how much you learn when it is your job........though I am not sure you would like where I work, Al Jazeera is a pretty popular channel. Believe it.