Landing Question Regarding Accident

[ChunksJR]

Not always...and the FNAEB doesn't actually take the wings. The CNO (or delegated NAVAIR) does.

For the record to forestall any confusion with "NAVAIR": FNAEB goes through chain to Commander Naval Air Force, the "lead" Type Commander (TYCOM), which is composed of former "AIRLANT" and "AIRPAC" and reports through CNAF to Commander Fleet Forces Command (CFFC). CNAF is currently VADM Zortman who operates out of AIRPAC spaces and RADM Starling sits in AIRLANT spaces at Norfolk. All mishap reporting goes through respective LANT and PAC chains (so in some respects they still operate as LANT and PAC entitites). "NAVAIR" is Naval Air Systems Command based at NAS Patuxent River and led by VADM Massenburg. NAVAIR does acquisition "things" and is not in mishap or FNAEB endorsement chain.

Sorry all for the confusion. Joe's 100% right here. This is one reason to have FOs in helo world...keep us from getting all mixed up with the admin sh!t. j/k.

They were landing over your head today huh?

 

[squeeze]

Envelope also covers speed as above certain speeds, injuries can result to flailing of libs induced by windblast and drogue/parachute can fail to deploy properly. Aircraft have envelopes as well and both are studied from day one of training.

Personally, I don't care what the ejection seat envelope is (save for the speed/alt aspects). As far as roll angle/altitude/sink rate, who cares? If you are in a spot where you're near the edge or out of the envelope, are you not going to pull the handle? Two choices: pull the handle and maybe survive, or don't and die. Not a tough choice for me.

So aside from the high speed/low speed, and high alt/low alt modes and what I want to be in in a controlled ejection (when I have time to set up for it), I personally feel there is no reason to know that shit.

/dumb rag student view

 

[HooverPilot]

Personally, I don't care what the ejection seat envelope is (save for the speed/alt aspects). As far as roll angle/altitude/sink rate, who cares? If you are in a spot where you're near the edge or out of the envelope, are you not going to pull the handle? Two choices: pull the handle and maybe survive, or don't and die. Not a tough choice for me.

So aside from the high speed/low speed, and high alt/low alt modes and what I want to be in in a controlled ejection (when I have time to set up for it), I personally feel there is no reason to know that shit.

/dumb rag student view

Except when you know the envelopes, you will know in a bad situation if a quick pull on the controls or a tactically timed pause before ejecting will put you into a better/survivable envelope. Knowing the envelopes will possibly allow you to make the ejection decision BEFORE you are out of the envelope.

Ex. What about an uncommanded roll after a cat shot, it would be handy to know at what AOB you are out of the envelope so you can be sure to be out of the airplane prior to that point.

Or how about a cold cat/engine failure off the cat? At what VSI @ 60'/40'/20' are you out of the envelope?

That's the kind of stuff that made me learn the ejection envelopes. It was the stuff that INCREASED my chances of survival.

 

[BigIron]

I believe you can read the pilot's approach article about it here
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/issues/marapr05/AverageIQ.htm

But I only vaguely recall the show and thus can't be certain.
P.S
The approach vault is a great place to learn ready room gouge
http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/vault/default.htm

After reading about the spate of prowler stab aug problems, I understood why engaging it is a very formalized event.

These Approach articles are always interesting to read.... Especially when you start knowing the folks writing the article, or you're the one writing it.

 

[gaijin6423]

I like how they all start with either, "It was a 'good deal' cross country," or, "I always swore that if I ever wrote an Approach article, it wouldn't start with, 'It was a good deal cross country." There definitely are some great learning points in there, though.

 

[Pugs]

snipped
And a FNAEB is always required in a Class "A" mishap (either $1 million in damage or loss of life).

Unless something has changed since I went to ASO or had my class A not always. Of course for my mishap we were chained to the deck and had a Hornet exhaust cook off the CADS in our sta1 pylon resulting in loss over the side of an ALQ-99 pod. For those that care a 6/9 pods runs $1.6M and a bit of the TR catwalk went with it.


Pugs

 

[BigIron]

Unless something has changed since I went to ASO or had my class A not always. Of course for my mishap we were chained to the deck and had a Hornet exhaust cook off the CADS in our sta1 pylon resulting in loss over the side of an ALQ-99 pod. For those that care a 6/9 pods runs $1.6M and a bit of the TR catwalk went with it.


Pugs

We had a mishap where a 53 was ditched at sea because a impending transmission failure. The aircraft, although recovered, and later stricken was a $30M loss. It was deemed completely a mechanical failure. The FNAEB process was waived for the pilots.

 

[ChunksJR]

We had a mishap where a 53 was ditched at sea because a impending transmission failure. The aircraft, although recovered, and later stricken was a $30M loss. It was deemed completely a mechanical failure. The FNAEB process was waived for the pilots.

We (not me, but squadron-mates) plucked your guys out of the water! Amazing story from the HAC (jr LT) and the the 2P (Cat II LCDR who just came back from shoe-tour)...they came and talked about it.

The Crewchief is a SH AO who helped me a lot with my gunshoots as WEPS at HSC-26...

This is a great thread for a good story about a Class A and a FNAEB from our very own bunk!

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35581

 

[Brett327]

Unless something has changed since I went to ASO or had my class A not always. Of course for my mishap we were chained to the deck and had a Hornet exhaust cook off the CADS in our sta1 pylon resulting in loss over the side of an ALQ-99 pod. For those that care a 6/9 pods runs $1.6M and a bit of the TR catwalk went with it.


Pugs

Had you pulled pins at that point? If not, that's not supposed to happen, CAD cook-off or otherwise. Interesting, please amplify.

Brett

 

[Pugs]

Had you pulled pins at that point? If not, that's not supposed to happen, CAD cook-off or otherwise. Interesting, please amplify.

Brett

Yep, Pins pulled, awaiting breakdown IIRC, it was 16 years ago. Paint was blistering on the pylon when it happened so it was pretty damn warm. Called the boss numerous times to move us or the Hornet but he was waiting to launch a Hummer off CAT 1 and would have had to spin him to get us off the bow near the crunch pole. As it happens moving us likely would not have helped as by the time the paint started blistering the engineering study showed that the CADS had already sucked up enough heat that theywere going to go. Handler got the blame as he used a non-standard spotting to free up cat-1. It felt like someone had run something big into the jet when it happened. I was in ECMO 3. Pilot was my roomate and is currently boss on Truman. You can likely look it up. I was in 141 at the time. After seeing the damage to the ship from the pod I'm not convinced that the pin would have been able to stop it.

 

[BigIron]

We (not me, but squadron-mates) plucked your guys out of the water! Amazing story from the HAC (jr LT) and the the 2P (Cat II LCDR who just came back from shoe-tour)...they came and talked about it.

The Crewchief is a SH AO who helped me a lot with my gunshoots as WEPS at HSC-26...

This is a great thread for a good story about a Class A and a FNAEB from our very own bunk!

http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/showthread.php?p=35581

Here's the article about the HM-14 ditch....I hot-seated the aircraft to this crew.....

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/media/approach/issues/mayjun05/ditching.htm

 

[Brett327]

After seeing the damage to the ship from the pod I'm not convinced that the pin would have been able to stop it.

Interesting story. As a former AO, I know the pin provides both an electrical and mechanical interlock to the sear mechanism which should prevent the opening of the hooks regardless of the load, but it would be interesting to see the engineering data on both CADs cooking off. What's supposed to happen is that the ejector foot is designed to fail but retain the load. I'm sure NAVAIR tests under those regimes. Good times.

Brett

 

[DanMa1156]

Yep, Pins pulled, awaiting breakdown IIRC, it was 16 years ago. Paint was blistering on the pylon when it happened so it was pretty damn warm. Called the boss numerous times to move us or the Hornet but he was waiting to launch a Hummer off CAT 1 and would have had to spin him to get us off the bow near the crunch pole. As it happens moving us likely would not have helped as by the time the paint started blistering the engineering study showed that the CADS had already sucked up enough heat that theywere going to go. Handler got the blame as he used a non-standard spotting to free up cat-1. It felt like someone had run something big into the jet when it happened. I was in ECMO 3. Pilot was my roomate and is currently boss on Truman. You can likely look it up. I was in 141 at the time. After seeing the damage to the ship from the pod I'm not convinced that the pin would have been able to stop it.

Wait, quick question, what's CADS and IIRC? This is a pretty incredible story. I'm sorry for being so ignorant, but from what I do understand it sounds incredible. So long story short, a Hornet caused a pod to destroy? I'm misunderstanding something here, since I didn't know that pins were in pods, I thought they were just in ordanance... man I know I'm sounding retarded right now, I just really want to hear this story. Sorry!

 

[Pugs]

CADS = Cartridge Actuation Device
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

The CADS are small explosive charges about the size of a 12 gauge shotshell in the Prowler there are two per station. If you need to get rid of an external store, be it a drop tank or ordnance these cartridges fire and push a "foot" which looks like cylinder about the size of a Fosters beer can in diameter and about half as high on the the top of the store, mechanical links are released and away it goes. Those were heated to the point in the pylon that they "cooked off" much like any other explosive device can be and jettisoned the ALQ-99 pod over the side of the ship, taking a chunk of ship with it. Given the pod weighs about a 1000 lbs that's not much a surprise. Brett as a former AO likely has a much better explanation of what goes on when you push the stores jettison but I'm not near bored enough to break out my old NATOPS!

 

[Brett327]

CADS = Cartridge Actuation Device
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

The CADS are small explosive charges about the size of a 12 gauge shotshell in the Prowler there are two per station. If you need to get rid of an external store, be it a drop tank or ordnance these cartridges fire and push a "foot" which looks like cylinder about the size of a Fosters beer can in diameter and about half as high on the the top of the store, mechanical links are released and away it goes. Those were heated to the point in the pylon that they "cooked off" much like any other explosive device can be and jettisoned the ALQ-99 pod over the side of the ship, taking a chunk of ship with it. Given the pod weighs about a 1000 lbs that's not much a surprise.

I couldn't have said it better myself. To amplify for Dan, many weapon configurations have multiple pins that get pulled at different times. Like Pugs said, each rack (the device which physically holds the ordnance to the jet) has a pin that is usually pulled in the line or wherever you're parked on the boat. Then, forward firing stuff like a HARM has its own pin directly on the missile that prevents the motor from firing. These pins are pulled in the arming area when the jet is pointed forward in case something goes wrong. The AOs will perform a series of checks to make sure there is no stray voltage before they electrically connect the weapon to the jet. So, all in all, there are lots of different pins that get pulled before you actually launch.

Brett