From what I've heard, the Aussie WOMEN are second to none.
If you're a naval aviator and of course American, they love you and yes, the woman are smoking hot.......many of them.......then again, when your drunk off your ass, 99% of them
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Let's hear it for Australia
- Thread starter Intruder Driver
- Start date
If you're a naval aviator and of course American, they love you and yes, the woman are smoking hot.......many of them.......then again, when your drunk off your ass, 99% of them
<threadjack>
Not to start a flamewar, but... damn. The national motto was "E Pluribus Unum" ("Out of Many, One" - those darn collectivist founding fathers) until 1956, making "In God We Trust" a rather recent edition of the motto. Additionally, to argue that the country was founded on "Christian principles" by "Christian men and women" is mistaken at best, and disingenuous at worst. Consider Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine... all were deists, or in the case of Washington, Freemasons. I also invite your attention to Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, which reads:
<end threadjack>
Quick fact check: Deism is a religion, Freemasonry is not; it is a fraternity.
While true, I think the point being made is that many of the founding fathers weren't Christians, or even particularly religious. In my view, the assertion that the founding fathers intended for this nation to be explicitly Christian, or even founded on Christian values is false. Any appearance that it was is a result of Christianity having been the majority faith and influential in many of the cultural norms of the day. In other words, the connection is largely incidental.
Brett
How dare you guys bend this thread into a religious "Jesus Down Under" discussion !!! 
If it continues to get in the way of drinkin', fightin', and glorying in the joys of Australia and the criminal inhabitants therein ... I'm gonna' split this thread.
Splitting threads .... Not to be confused with parting the water ...
If it continues to get in the way of drinkin', fightin', and glorying in the joys of Australia and the criminal inhabitants therein ... I'm gonna' split this thread.
Splitting threads .... Not to be confused with parting the water ...
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
How could I get in the way of such worthy endeavours?
Brett
Your'e going to be a hinge soon. It will happen.
I know this is an old thread, but it peaked my attention because this is something that I have been wondering about a lot, and I was wondering if some of the more scholarly of you on here could help clear this up a little for me. This might need to be moved to the Warzone now.
See this is what confuses me a lot regarding this argument, because it's tough to find exact answers. You get:
"The Founding Fathers were Christian men!"
"No they weren't!"
"YES THEY WERE!"
"Well my dad could beat up your dad!"
But then I read things like, for example, that at the Jefferson memorial, on the top, it says "I have sworn upon on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
And how Ben Franklin said at the first Constitutional Convention of 1787 that the Convention begin each day with a prayer. Supposedly, he said, "...the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth---that God governs in the Affairs of Men."
And in his inaugural address, George Washington said,
"...it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge....No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States...You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence."
Then in the Thanksgiving Proclamation of October 3, 1789, Washington declared, "it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the Providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor."
Now making that's cherrypicking quotes, but it seems to counter the idea that the Founding Fathers were not Christian, or religious to some extent.
I also read that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, for example, were considered the least religious of the early Presidents, both attended church services in the Capitol, that church services were held in the House chamber until after the Civil War. Jefferson also allowed executive branch buildings to be used for church services, and church was also held in the Treasury building and the Supreme Court.
Jefferson from my understanding was against any national religion, but he was supportive of religion overall still.
Regarding "One nation under God," I have heard would IMO could be interpreted as a fudged argument, but it has two examples, for example in the Weekly Standard on October 27, 2003, James Piereson wrote that on July 2, 1776, as British troops were closing in on Staten Island and the Continental Congress was meeting in Philadelphia to declare independence, George Washington was gathering his troops to Long Island for battle, and in his General Orders to his men that day, he wrote, "The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves....The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage and conduct of this army."
Also Abraham Lincoln, in his Gettysburg Address, remarked that "It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to the cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion; that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
Going by that, one could make the argument that "under God" isn't just a fifty year-old tradition in America. Of course then again, it still at the time wasn't any official saying either, so the argument could be said to be fudged I suppose.
Then there are Christians who say one can go around the Capitol and find all sorts of references to Christianity that "prove" the nation was founded on Christian principles and also things said and written by the Founding Fathers, but then there's that quote from the Treaty of Tripoli above, which seems to directly contradict all that, in saying the United States "...was not, in any way, founded on the Christian religion..."
I also know many argue over public displays of Christianity like a manger scene in a public building. To this I read that the First Amendment protects "freedom OF religion," not "freedom FROM religion," and that the Founding Fathers didn't see holding church services and the like in public buildings as infringing on the First Amendment the way many these days believe.
Of course, some Googling, and you see things like, "Freedom OF religion IS freedom FROM religion!!" So obviously people disagree with the above assertion.
I read that the idea of "separation of church and state," in the way it is interpreted in modern times, was implemented in the late 20th century from actions of the ACLU, and that government was not meant to be directly separated from religion, but I haven't seen any detailed argument on this, so I'm wondering if anyone knew more?
This is a subject that really confuses me!
From what I have read, it seems that the United States was founded on Christian PRINCIPLES, and the Founding Fathers themselves were Christian, but the nation was not intended to be a "Christian nation" in the sense of Christianity being a declared national religion or anything. Just the PRINCIPLES it was founded on were grounded from Christian values because the founders were Christian it seems...?
See this is what confuses me a lot regarding this argument, because it's tough to find exact answers. You get:
"The Founding Fathers were Christian men!"
"No they weren't!"
"YES THEY WERE!"
"Well my dad could beat up your dad!"
But then I read things like, for example, that at the Jefferson memorial, on the top, it says "I have sworn upon on the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
And how Ben Franklin said at the first Constitutional Convention of 1787 that the Convention begin each day with a prayer. Supposedly, he said, "...the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth---that God governs in the Affairs of Men."
And in his inaugural address, George Washington said,
"...it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge....No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States...You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence."
Then in the Thanksgiving Proclamation of October 3, 1789, Washington declared, "it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the Providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor."
Now making that's cherrypicking quotes, but it seems to counter the idea that the Founding Fathers were not Christian, or religious to some extent.
I also read that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, for example, were considered the least religious of the early Presidents, both attended church services in the Capitol, that church services were held in the House chamber until after the Civil War. Jefferson also allowed executive branch buildings to be used for church services, and church was also held in the Treasury building and the Supreme Court.
Jefferson from my understanding was against any national religion, but he was supportive of religion overall still.
Regarding "One nation under God," I have heard would IMO could be interpreted as a fudged argument, but it has two examples, for example in the Weekly Standard on October 27, 2003, James Piereson wrote that on July 2, 1776, as British troops were closing in on Staten Island and the Continental Congress was meeting in Philadelphia to declare independence, George Washington was gathering his troops to Long Island for battle, and in his General Orders to his men that day, he wrote, "The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves....The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage and conduct of this army."
Also Abraham Lincoln, in his Gettysburg Address, remarked that "It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to the cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion; that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
Going by that, one could make the argument that "under God" isn't just a fifty year-old tradition in America. Of course then again, it still at the time wasn't any official saying either, so the argument could be said to be fudged I suppose.
Then there are Christians who say one can go around the Capitol and find all sorts of references to Christianity that "prove" the nation was founded on Christian principles and also things said and written by the Founding Fathers, but then there's that quote from the Treaty of Tripoli above, which seems to directly contradict all that, in saying the United States "...was not, in any way, founded on the Christian religion..."
I also know many argue over public displays of Christianity like a manger scene in a public building. To this I read that the First Amendment protects "freedom OF religion," not "freedom FROM religion," and that the Founding Fathers didn't see holding church services and the like in public buildings as infringing on the First Amendment the way many these days believe.
Of course, some Googling, and you see things like, "Freedom OF religion IS freedom FROM religion!!" So obviously people disagree with the above assertion.
I read that the idea of "separation of church and state," in the way it is interpreted in modern times, was implemented in the late 20th century from actions of the ACLU, and that government was not meant to be directly separated from religion, but I haven't seen any detailed argument on this, so I'm wondering if anyone knew more?
This is a subject that really confuses me!
From what I have read, it seems that the United States was founded on Christian PRINCIPLES, and the Founding Fathers themselves were Christian, but the nation was not intended to be a "Christian nation" in the sense of Christianity being a declared national religion or anything. Just the PRINCIPLES it was founded on were grounded from Christian values because the founders were Christian it seems...?
Maine Vaulter
USMC Candidate - Air
Props to the Land Down Under... We need some of those polititians over here.
This Nation was also founded upon the principles of racism, slavery and genocide. Are these the Christian principles and values you speak of?
Brett
Okay.
No; by "Christian principles," I meant more the emphasis on the individual for development, "love thy neightbor," work hard, etc...how was the country founded upon the principles of race, slavery, and genocide? I always thought it was rather hypocritical of course how certain of the founders were slave-owners, and I believe even they had guilt about that, however, I wasn't aware of the country being actually founded based on anything like slavery or racism. I would more consider those things as you originally stated about Christianity, that the country was founded as a free nation, but since so many people held racist views at the time and many owned slaves, that racism and slavery were prevalent in the early days even though they should not have been.
I'm lost as to what you mean by genocide, please explain
Good point.