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Lockheed Pitching Revamped Viking to Fill Carrier Cargo and Tanking Roles

ea6bflyr

Working Class Bum
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Hrm. I'm suddenly realizing I'd never actually seen an engine can come out of a COD, yet for some reason I assumed that it wasn't verboten if the circumstances dictated. Learning has occurred; I'll just go over here and haze myself.
I've carried lots of engines to the boat in a COD (as a crewman). They have a specific engine stand they must go on; they cannot go in the shipping container. I recall carrying an F-14 engine to the boat on a stand back in '92. CODs could not carry assembled T-56 engines due to height.
 

illinijoe05

Nachos
pilot
Let's not forget that the V-22 adds some capabilities that the C-2/CS-3 dont have. For starters you can do long range medevac from the CVN now that you dont have to CAT the patient off. You can in flight refuel so your range is (theoretically) unlimited. The V-22 probably changes the CSAR game for the air wing, at the very least it extends the range and brings down rescue timeline. While you probably can't internal engine cans you certainly can external. The other thing is it enables you to hit other ship decks besides the CVN with your logistics aircraft (LHA/D, LPD, LSD, AOE?, T-AKE?) . And if the refueling bladder thing pans out you get that capability.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Either this is a Harrier problem or a gator deck division problem. We had to have the same non skid and same deck maintenance requirements on a CV, lots more fixed wing ops, and I don't remember a single FOD for shot peen.
My take is that it's a CNAF vs CNSF problem. CNAF takes really good care of the carriers and seems to have very strict schedules that allow enough in port time for needed between cruise work to be done. They even recently brought a CVN(Ike?) home early and surged another so that the non-skid work could be done in the States. The contractors are higher quality and a set timeline allows them to do the work, and clean up, properly.

CNSF rides the LHDs hard and puts them away wet. BAT had her non-skid work done overseas during a short in-port period and then FODd a bunch of harriers during the Libya action. On BHR our sked shifted and the contractors were taking down tents the day before we went to sea.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
The odds of a turning helo breaking on your deck are slim.
Your experiences are VERY different from mine. But here's the deal, if a -60 breaks while turning up in the crotch (forgot what "spot" that is), it can easily be moved aside. That can not happen with a V-22.

I was floored at the pushback from GW's in-house risk assessment.
Have you ever seen a V-22 on the flight deck of a carrier with the airing embarked?

I'd be surprised that the Handler couldn't accommodate an errant 53 or 22
I wouldn't, and I'm not necessarily defending it. My first cruise had 2x Tomcat sqds, 2x Charlie sods, 1x Hoover sqd, 1x Prowler and Hawkeye, and 1x HS sqd. The flight deck was MUCH more crowded then than today's flight deck it. Handlers have more room today, but still often behave as if they're being overloaded with aircraft. I was onboard GHWB when he, Barbara, and his entourage flew aboard in a -53. The precautions taken and subsequent teeth sucking involved with letting a -53 land onboard the boat was eye opening. They made the ship's namesake and former POTUS get out while the shitter was still turning. They felt that strongly about not letting it shut down and jam the deck. That's admittedly only one example, but I think it's a fairly illustrative example.

but if you can take C-2s when they're not on the beach then you have room to stuff a shitter.
You CAN take them (assume we're talking about a two, maybe three, aircraft detachment) for extended periods of time, BUT it impacts the number of aircraft that can be moved around the deck - i.e., flown. Even just one broken COD on the flight deck is a mess. Watch the Boss's head explode when the "early go" COD suspends before a 20 jet cyclic transition. Without having a model in front of me I can't be certain, but I would bet that the flight deck footprint of a V-22 is larger than folded C-2.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Your experiences are VERY different from mine. But here's the deal, if a -60 breaks while turning up in the crotch (forgot what "spot" that is), it can easily be moved aside. That can not happen with a V-22.

Have you ever seen a V-22 on the flight deck of a carrier with the airing embarked?

I wouldn't, and I'm not necessarily defending it. My first cruise had 2x Tomcat sqds, 2x Charlie sods, 1x Hoover sqd, 1x Prowler and Hawkeye, and 1x HS sqd. The flight deck was MUCH more crowded then than today's flight deck it. Handlers have more room today, but still often behave as if they're being overloaded with aircraft. I was onboard GHWB when he, Barbara, and his entourage flew aboard in a -53. The precautions taken and subsequent teeth sucking involved with letting a -53 land onboard the boat was eye opening. They made the ship's namesake and former POTUS get out while the shitter was still turning. They felt that strongly about not letting it shut down and jam the deck. That's admittedly only one example, but I think it's a fairly illustrative example.

You CAN take them (assume we're talking about a two, maybe three, aircraft detachment) for extended periods of time, BUT it impacts the number of aircraft that can be moved around the deck - i.e., flown. Even just one broken COD on the flight deck is a mess. Watch the Boss's head explode when the "early go" COD suspends before a 20 jet cyclic transition. Without having a model in front of me I can't be certain, but I would bet that the flight deck footprint of a V-22 is larger than folded C-2.
I think a lot of this is just familiarity with helos and their tilt rotor cousins. We had four 53s that flew at least one line a day. We would routinely land 53s and 22s right next to the harriers that were parked in the aft slash with no ill effects. I guess this exposure to RW ops makes me look at the risks a bit differently than a FW Airboss would.

Moving a 60 and a V-22 are about the same difficulty. We had to deal with broken V-22s to make the jet launch too.

I agree that stuffing a big aircraft on a CVN will impact the effectiveness of the deck. I'm glad you brought up the point of the size of today's airwing vs airwings in the past. Sure, the handler won't like it because he may have come up with the freedom that a smaller airwing offers him, but him not liking it doesn't make it impossible. Doing things to make Handlers happy is ridiculous; 1. The handler will never be happy unless he's in port with a San Mig in his hand and 2. The handlers job is to eat shit sandwiches all day every day.
 

707guy

"You can't make this shit up..."
Speaking of the Handler - what designator usually fills that billet? That's not an aviator on a disassociated right?
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Your experiences are VERY different from mine. But here's the deal, if a -60 breaks while turning up in the crotch (forgot what "spot" that is), it can easily be moved aside. That can not happen with a V-22.

Have you ever seen a V-22 on the flight deck of a carrier with the airing embarked?


You CAN take them (assume we're talking about a two, maybe three, aircraft detachment) for extended periods of time, BUT it impacts the number of aircraft that can be moved around the deck - i.e., flown. Even just one broken COD on the flight deck is a mess. Watch the Boss's head explode when the "early go" COD suspends before a 20 jet cyclic transition. Without having a model in front of me I can't be certain, but I would bet that the flight deck footprint of a V-22 is larger than folded C-2.
Last deployment, we sent a section of 22's to HST on a few occasions - it was no big deal. I have seen 22's go down on a spot and be folded and stuffed within about 30 min. Granted, the yellow gear requirement might be a hurdle on the carrier, but an Osprey going down is not the end of the world. On TR we had 53's come out to us routinely in 5th fleet - we secured maintenance and canopies, but it wasn't that big a deal. I think Handlers on CVN's can get a bit dramatic over these things. V-22's are going to be more common on the carrier - and yes, they may even go down once in awhile.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
On a CVN it's usually a an AB LDO/CWO. On an LHD it's a 1310 job.
Oh, that is new to me. Used to be the handler on a CV was a 13XX LT. It was also a good career move. Worked great for the handler on my first ship. He became an A-7 skipper, F-18 rag CO and Reserve Airwing Cag.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Last deployment, we sent a section of 22's to HST on a few occasions - it was no big deal. I have seen 22's go down on a spot and be folded and stuffed within about 30 min. Granted, the yellow gear requirement might be a hurdle on the carrier, but an Osprey going down is not the end of the world. On TR we had 53's come out to us routinely in 5th fleet - we secured maintenance and canopies, but it wasn't that big a deal. I think Handlers on CVN's can get a bit dramatic over these things. V-22's are going to be more common on the carrier - and yes, they may even go down once in awhile.

This is all a matter of perspective.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
This is all a matter of perspective.
A decent deck crew can fold and stuff a V-22 into the bone in less than 30min.

Maintenance next to bouncing helos is common place on the LHD. If we secured all maintenance every time a V-22 or H-53 landed no work would ever get done. The rules were that no one could be up on top of an aircraft on a spot adjacent to a landing or lifting helo/V-22. All that meant was that the maintainers had to jump down from the bird until they were on deck, this was usually no more than a 5min break. This also required some judicious spot choices by the tower crew to not constantly interrupt maintenance that was being done.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
I got it. I was just thinking that having the "tail wheel" on a SH-60 located further up the tail would make it a good bit more controllable. I am a high time tail wheel pilot so I get the dynamics.

Didn't mean to say you didn't get the dynamics, I was thinking maybe you thought we actually had steering. That makes me curious if any western helo does.

Are the -53/-65/numerous civilian models free-castering on their nose wheel, as well?

[/quote]Still, back in the Big One they taxied tail wheel aircraft on smaller CV decks.[/quote]

Honestly, I think it could be done, but I'm guessing the ORM that goes into it takes into account that aircraft have their wings folded, so if they hit something, it's mostly just metal on metal. For a -60 (for example), it's 64 foot wingspan of spinning blades of death won't just hit something, but also cause all kinds of chaos. Again, can't prove it, mostly just thinking out loud.
 
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