Logging Solo time

[FelixTheGreat]

In order to complete a part 141 approved course, like the Jeppesen 141 commercial course, they have to have Solo cross-country time. They have to show that they were the sole occupant, so logging it in the solo column of their logbook is the easiest way to do it. If they got 709'd or something later on, they can go back and show the feds here was my solo flight and I logged it as such. If nothing else it is to cover yourself in the event that you need to prove times.

In order to complete a 141 course you need to meet the requirements of the course, what ever they are. I am under the school of thinking that it requires a solo flight, and you are rated, you should log it the same way the course details the times.

Anyway, I was always taught if you do something log it, so I guess that is where I am comming from. My logbook has a solo column so if I take a solo flight I log it as solo and PIC. I tell my students to do the same so there is no question about what the flight was about. People forget that a logbook is a legal document and if god forbid you got questioned by the feds, that is the stongest leg to stand on.

Here is what you have to log in order to complete the Cessna Commercial 141 course:

65 solo day
7 solo night
35 solo x-c day
4 solo x-c night

The applicant would already have their private so why wouldn’t they log the time as both solo and PIC so when the examiner asks to see the requirements are met you can say here is the solo time and PIC time.

 

[Tom]

In order to complete a part 141 approved course, like the Jeppesen 141 commercial course, they have to have Solo cross-country time. They have to show that they were the sole occupant, so logging it in the solo column of their logbook is the easiest way to do it. If they got 709'd or something later on, they can go back and show the feds here was my solo flight and I logged it as such. If nothing else it is to cover yourself in the event that you need to prove times.

In order to complete a 141 course you need to meet the requirements of the course, what ever they are. I am under the school of thinking that it requires a solo flight, and you are rated, you should log it the same way the course details the times.

Anyway, I was always taught if you do something log it, so I guess that is where I am comming from. My logbook has a solo column so if I take a solo flight I log it as solo and PIC. I tell my students to do the same so there is no question about what the flight was about. People forget that a logbook is a legal document and if god forbid you got questioned by the feds, that is the stongest leg to stand on.

Here is what you have to log in order to complete the Cessna Commercial 141 course:

65 solo day
7 solo night
35 solo x-c day
4 solo x-c night

The applicant would already have their private so why wouldn’t they log the time as both solo and PIC so when the examiner asks to see the requirements are met you can say here is the solo time and PIC time.

How about the 141 school records? Or that fact that your instructor signed you off for a stage check to finish the course? Or the fact the school issued a temporary? Or the fact that the school gave an endorsement saying you met the requirements for a course? Or the fact the FAA accepted the 8710 and issued you your certificate? If I got 709 checked, what proof would the FAA have to violate me? My logbook does not have a solo column. Being on the safe side is rounding down times when you're not sure. Creating too much hassle for yourself over a non-issue is worrying about solo time.

 

[FelixTheGreat]

Just because you got a license doesn't mean it can't be revoked because of unmet requirements. Last month we had a United pilot who pencil whipped his logbook to met requirements for his ratings. He pissed off his girlfiriend, she called the FSDO and turned him in. He could not prove what he did because his logbook was a mess so they took his ATP and handed him his private back.

 

[Tom]

Just because you got a license doesn't mean it can't be revoked because of unmet requirements. Last month we had a United pilot who pencil whipped his logbook to met requirements for his ratings. He pissed off his girlfiriend, she called the FSDO and turned him in. He could not prove what he did because his logbook was a mess so they took his ATP and handed him his private back.

They took his ATP because he falsified information in his logbook, not because he failed to show solo time and could not prove what he actually did. The FAA has a firm stance on falsified logbook entries. I'd say the guy is lucky he got a private out of the deal.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Just because you got a license doesn't mean it can't be revoked because of unmet requirements. Last month we had a United pilot who pencil whipped his logbook to met requirements for his ratings. He pissed off his girlfiriend, she called the FSDO and turned him in. He could not prove what he did because his logbook was a mess so they took his ATP and handed him his private back.

what kind of idiot tells his g/f about falsifying his logbook? Seriously, couldn't he think of something better to talk about?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Dmitri - I've taught 141 in the past too. At a bunch of different schools including one where I was the DO & Chief Instructor. All the FAA means when it says solo for the commercial license is that your are the PIC and are not flying with an instructor. So no dual received for the flight means solo to the FAA. They could care less whether or not you were the sole occupant of the plane as log as you met your currency requirements for carrying passengers.

Your school probably has the no one else in the plane requirement. Probably for insurance reasons or as their way of ensuring you don't cheat and bring another pilot along to help you.

I went through FAA inspections of my school's 141 program as the guy they would fry if they found problems. I didn't get fried.

I have also signed off many people for private, instrument and commercial license. Never once have I ever put solo time in their logbook. There has never been a problem.

I even had to take 709 rides twice. Both times for students fucking up after I had been their CFI at some point (one of the perils of being a 141 stage check evaluator). The first was for a guy I stage checked for his private license and the second I stage checked for his commercial. In neither case was the way his flight time was logged questioned. There were no solo entries in their's logbook.

For any 8710 I ever completed or approved, we determined the solo time by using the PIC time from before he got his private license. That was it. most guys had between 11 and 20 hours of solo to include those getting their commercial licenses. DEs & the FAA examine their logbooks to determine aeronautical requirements such as those you mentioned. I.e. is their cross country PIC without an associated dual received entry.

Too many people (and it sounds like your Chief Instructor is one) make the FARs too hard by over analyzing and over interpreting.

 

[FelixTheGreat]

Alright, just got off the phone with my favorite D.E. and his official answer is that solo means solo. Having someone else in the airplane that can help in anyway such as look for airports, etc. is not considered solo. I asked if that includes a someone who is a non-pilot coming along to keep the person company and he gave me a flat out NO.

He told me a story of a commercial applicant not being able to count his long solo cross-country because he took his fiance, someone who knew nothing about flying, with him to keep him company. As far as the FAA is concerned, solo flight means exactly that. I was even shocked when he told me that if you are logging solo time for a rating only the pilot can be in the airplane. No people, dogs, cats, hamsters, horses, rats, bats, nothing. I am not kidding, this is what he told me.

I think I should let everyone know that I don't even come close to having all the answers. All the strange legalese that we pick up as CFI's usually come from someone who has way more time and experience than I can dream of having. I will talk to some more people when I go to work tomorrow and see what else I can dig up.

 

[HAL Pilot]

That's the FAA for you. Different answers from different people doing the same job. The only answer that is legal is the answer from the FAA Legal Counsel Office and I doubt that they have been asked this one.

However, I've never had one want it that way. There is no solo time logged in my book or any of the students I have ever instructed.

But the bottomline is that you have to go with what the guy doing the licensing check ride wants.