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Looking for gouge? Ask your Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation here (Part 1)
- Thread starter Nose
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Don't remember @ the Queer, but the Bomber could, in the books, at least. The Intruder could also "deck launch" if all the stars (and weight/winds) were in alignment -- again, in the books. Only a fool would try it, unless it were a "must" emergency. So I suspect they are the same, maybe even favoring the Queer a little 'cause of the extra "punch" from the twin -408's.
Some A-6's did touch & gos and traps & cats in Seattle's Elliot Bay from USS BOAT swingin' on the hook during one of the Sea Fair celebrations @ 15-16 years ago ..... made all those Starbuck's suckin', burned-out-but-now-cleaned-up former hippies cum current liberals spill their lattes ....
Do you mean somebody like a CAG Paddles??
I landed them. Not so much on the launching...
Min end for a Prowler at CQ GW (46K) is around 125. For a normal combat load (58K), it's 142.
Brett
Wasn't United States also supposed to launch and recover gigantic (for a ship) nuclear-capable bombers? (and the AF didn't like that one bit, which eventually led to the cancellation of United States and the Revolt of the Admirals)
Yep, United States was meant to launch the AJ Savage nuke bombers - huge airplanes (for a carrier a/c) because the nukes of the era were huge. The Viggies and Whales were also big airplanes for the same reason. The Navy transitioned from a philosophy of lots of middlin' size carriers to a few "supercarriers" because it was anticipated that the Navy would need big nuke-delivering airplanes for the forseeable future.
Louis Johnson was an utter incompetent political hack, a big-time operator from the party machine who was appointed by Truman - against his better judgment - because he owed him big from the '46 election. Johnson viewed the SecDef job as a stepping-stone to the presidency, and saw his position as SecDef as primarily handing out favors in order to line himself up for the next election. He didn't support the B-36 over the carrier programs because he liked the AF better, but because there was more political hay to be made. He didn't understand the military at all - tried to run things like a Tammany Hall-style political machine - and wound up pissing off nearly everyone with a star or more. He finally stepped on a few toes too many and discovered he wasn't as invulnerable as he believed when Truman canned him.
Louis Johnson was an utter incompetent political hack, a big-time operator from the party machine who was appointed by Truman - against his better judgment - because he owed him big from the '46 election. Johnson viewed the SecDef job as a stepping-stone to the presidency, and saw his position as SecDef as primarily handing out favors in order to line himself up for the next election. He didn't support the B-36 over the carrier programs because he liked the AF better, but because there was more political hay to be made. He didn't understand the military at all - tried to run things like a Tammany Hall-style political machine - and wound up pissing off nearly everyone with a star or more. He finally stepped on a few toes too many and discovered he wasn't as invulnerable as he believed when Truman canned him.
I love how the bureaucracy works :sleep_125... the bean-counting mindset, the planning, the "philosophy", the procurement morass, and what the "smart guys" anticipate .... don't need no more missiles, no more dogfights, etc., don't need no steenkin' badges .... etc.
In that light -- i.e., "the Navy would need big nuke-delivering airplanes" -- you gotta remember the genesis of this little beauty -- as one of it's rationales was to serve as a semi-expendable "one-way" nuke delivery platform in addition to replacing the venerable A-1 SPAD:
Ok, I have a stupid question. When they introduce new platforms, and the new ones are completely different animals than the old ones, who gets to be the first ones to train on them?
Is it the experienced guys who are already expert pilots?
Or is it the fresh nuggets that aren't set in the ways of the old platforms?
Is it the experienced guys who are already expert pilots?
Or is it the fresh nuggets that aren't set in the ways of the old platforms?
Yep, that qualifies as a stupid question all right. :icon_smil
Answer: it depends, but in several platforms that I have observed, the squadron transitioned with existing aircrew and the few "nuggets" were hand-picked, but typically SERGRADs using their "trump" card to get the highly sought after seats. Watch JSF as it comes on line to see how they handle that one.
Both USMC and Navy "manage" the year groups as best they can to ensure the command screen boards have adequate numbers to pick from so keeping that in mind, they can't hold off putting nuggets in the new aircraft for very long or it causes a problem years down the road. That said, it's not because they
. Experience always counts for a lot.
It may be different today, but............
With the initial introduction of the F-14, only a highly select group of top performing officers - all at least second tour pilots and RIO's, or greater - were selected to attend the new F-14 RAG (formerly the F-8 Rag), VF-124, even before any aircraft became available. This select group was known as the "Cadre." They were divided into two groups, "A" and "B". Much later, the first two operational F-14 squadrons stood up, and the A group became VF-1 and B group became VF-2. Others remained in the VF-124 RAG to train subsequent crews for later squadrons.
Just prior to VF-1 and VF-2's first operational deployment, IIRC, both squadrons received a couple of nugget pilots and RIO's. (At least one of those nuggets – "Streak" – is now an active Vice Admiral today.)
One of the problems of that first cruise was that most all of the officers had been the top performer at their previous command. That and very many were also up for their department head tour – way too many for the too few department heads available for them. The two nuggets used to shake their heads as the more senior officers stepped all over each other in bloody competition for top fitness reports and DH billets.
Fortunately, by the start of the second F-14 operational cruise, most all of the senior "cadre" had rotated out. They were replaced with more nuggets and others, and the squadron not only began to finally resemble a normal squadron's manning in layered experience and rank, but it suddenly became a much happier and more productive one.
It may be different today, but............
With the initial introduction of the F-14, only a highly select group of top performing officers - all at least second tour pilots and RIO's, or greater - were selected to attend the new F-14 RAG (formerly the F-8 Rag), VF-124, even before any aircraft became available. This select group was known as the "Cadre." They were divided into two groups, "A" and "B". Much later, the first two operational F-14 squadrons stood up, and the A group became VF-1 and B group became VF-2. Others remained in the VF-124 RAG to train subsequent crews for later squadrons.
Just prior to VF-1 and VF-2's first operational deployment, IIRC, both squadrons received a couple of nugget pilots and RIO's. (At least one of those nuggets – "Streak" – is now an active Vice Admiral today.)
One of the problems of that first cruise was that most all of the officers had been the top performer at their previous command. That and very many were also up for their department head tour – way too many for the too few department heads available for them. The two nuggets used to shake their heads as the more senior officers stepped all over each other in bloody competition for top fitness reports and DH billets.
Fortunately, by the start of the second F-14 operational cruise, most all of the senior "cadre" had rotated out. They were replaced with more nuggets and others, and the squadron not only began to finally resemble a normal squadron's manning in layered experience and rank, but it suddenly became a much happier and more productive one.
I heard that for the new P-8, they are selecting P-3 pilots to go to Pax river to be the test pilots to transition the syllabus to the P-8. Is this type of process just for transition aircraft or does this apply to completely new airframes?
You're getting terms confused to point that your opening statement is inaccurate.
1) The Navy uses VX squadrons to conduct Developmental and Operational Testing. Pax River does have both DT and OT squadrons assigned to do Maritime platform RDT&E. Platforms undergo DT first with initial developmental examples of an airframe and majority of aircrews are Test Pilot graduates (that do not come from fleet directly). VX-20 is the developmental test squadron that does work with PMA-205 and PMA-290 to develop the training materials and devices for the fleet. After their tour with VX-20 aircrews that are not staying in NAVAIR assignments as AEDOs will return to the fleet and if they are working P-8, they'll likely be assigned to the initial squadrons as has occurred with V-22 and other new platforms so that part of your assertion is correct, just not how you're starting the process. COs particularly want this to happen because VX aircrews are extemely knowledgeable in the aircraft from literally writinng the book (NATOPS has to start somewhere and it's at Pax or China Lake in some cases). DT squadrons ensure that the platform is compliant to the Specification associated with the contract as well as testing its performance envelope which includes validation and verification of safe weapons release. In current practice, Operational Testers may overlap their involvement in Joint DT/OT slight testing to allow OT aircrews to get up to speed before the dedicated OT Phase begins thereby shortening overall timeline.
2) The Term "Test Pilot" is applied to only those who have completed Test Pilot School at Pax River (or Air Force "sister school" at Edwards) so it would be impossible to for pilots to go directly to VX units as you state as "Test Pilots". There is a separate application process to become a "Test Pilot".
3) Not all pilots and NFOs in VX squadrons are TPS graduates therefore your assertion that they are selecting P-3 pilots to go to Pax river to be the test pilots to transition the syllabus to the P-8 works only if you leave out "Test" in front of pilot. That path only applies to the aircrews that go directly to VX squadrons and do not attend TPS. DT squadrons are heavily weighted with TPS graduates, but OT squadrons that report to Commander Operational Test and Evaluation Force (COMOPTEVFOR) are virtually the exact opposite and their aircraft will be first of Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) examples produced to conduct the Operational Evaluation (OPEVAL) that will be used to determine if the entire platform and its related "ilties" are ready for prime time (that includes training materials and logisitcs and weapons performance. VX-1 will put production representative P-8s through the ringer to determine if it is Operational Effective and Suitable. These VX aircrews will also return to the fleet (in majority of cases) and be highly prized as they develop the operational tactics.
In just about every case in the way you stated above, the "transition" aircraft = "new airframe" so you're not really understanding the "process". In other words, V-22 is a new aircraft and CH-46 squadrons are transitioning into it. AH-1W and UH-1N squadrons will be tranistioning into the AH-1Z and UH-1Y. F/A-18 (and USMC AV-8B) squadrons will be transitioning into the F-35 and so on. Can you provide a Transition aircraft that is not a new aircraft? Regardless, DT and OT squadons have been around for decades and unless aircrews go AEDO and stay in NAVAIR organization (or get out), they do indeed return to the fleet and in case of new aircraft, almost always go to their community's newly transitioned units (there are exceptions to every rule and aircrews can fly multiple aircraft in VX squadrons especially on DT side).
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