I'm going to try to get an air contract this fall and go to the ten week OCS course next summer. I'm just trying to learn all I can about it before I go. My question is: I have heard that after your first tour as a pilot you have to do a tour on the ground. I know how all the training works up to this point(thanks to Air Warriors) but I am not sure what happens after you start flying in the fleet. I appreciate the help and apologize if my terminology is way off.
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Marine Aviation Careers
- Thread starter KSM
- Start date
Terminology and knowledge is above average at this point. Good use of research prior to first post.
The ground tour you refer to is generally referred to as a B-billet. Said billet usually occurs as a captain, and includes, but is not limited to, some combination of recruiting, OCS/TBS training, FAC tour, flight training, manpower (human resources) duties, etc. I'll let the saltier guys describe the first fleet tour and B-billet, as I'm interested myself.
The ground tour you refer to is generally referred to as a B-billet. Said billet usually occurs as a captain, and includes, but is not limited to, some combination of recruiting, OCS/TBS training, FAC tour, flight training, manpower (human resources) duties, etc. I'll let the saltier guys describe the first fleet tour and B-billet, as I'm interested myself.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I think I might be able to help... After the "ground tour", I'm really of no use. Here's what it's like after flight school and you hit the fleet:
H2P
You check into your squadron as an H2P (or PQM if you're a skid guy), and are quickly thrown into the various syllabuses (for an assault support guy: TERF, NVG High-Light, NVG Low-Light, externals, CQ's, tactics, etc...). Once you finish the TERF and NVG codes in the assault support community, you are considered a "full up round." Because you can carry troops day or night. Expect that once this happens you'll start flying frags, training missions (big packages, etc...). Most of your flying is going to be done as at least a section (2 aircraft), so the limited amount of formation flying you have done up to this point will be very well refined.
In addition to all your flying (and stuying), you will be assigned a ground job. For boot 1stLt's, these are generally along the lines of schedule writer, adjutant, legal officer, communications officer, family readiness officer, SACO, intelligence officer, ground safety officer, and embark officer. The top three to go quickly (a.k.a. you're one of the first to check in) are: schedule writer, adjutant, and embark officer. They all have their pluses and minuses, and no - you can't give your input.
Now you must balance your ground job, and your flying. Of course, you can't let your flying knowledge/skills drop off and they're very perishable at this point. Not to mention that your ground job is 99.9% of what they're going to write about on your fitrep. So you can see it's quite a bit of juggling. That's where the long hours come into play (as a 1stLt - I generally spent anywhere from 10-12 hours at work, when not on deployment).
It usually takes anywhere from 6-8 months to get all the quals needed for you to be deployed. Of course, you still won't be GOOD, you'll just be safe enough not to kill yourself. With today's deployment schedules that means you will probably finish the syllabuses and deploy. So, your first deployment will be as an H2P. As you start to approach the 500 hour mark, you'll generally spend most of your time in the right seat (where you will fly your HAC check from) and be grilled for a good portion of your flights to make sure you're ready. Then you will do you HAC check, which is a serious of four flights. You have a day/night HAC review and a day/night HAC check. Some squadrons also do a HAC board (mine did), and you will be grilled on a bunch of stuff before they even let you get in the aircraft. Once you complete the HAC syllabus, you will go see the group or the MEU CO (your CO does not designate you a HAC), and they will give you some semblence of "Dad is giving you the keys to the car, don't fuck it up." Now the REAL learning begins.
HAC
So, now you're a boot HAC still in the same ground job. Normally, the senior Capts will start having you brief and lead sections to get you ready for section leader. It will be a while before you go through this (no real timeline or hour requirement, just when you're "ready"), it took me about 8 months from HAC to section lead. Never turn down an opportunity to "brief for fun" as we used to call it. It will make your section lead checks (there are only two, one each day/night) that much easier.
Now you return from deployment, and you will generally have to bid farewell to at least 2-3 of your peers for FAC tours, IA billets and what not. These are not the ones you want to go on. These are referred to as "HAC to FAC", and if you're sent on one, you're not considered a "player" in your squadron. Some of the IA billets they'll send you on is as a safety officer at MAG, training officer at wing, etc... The list seems almost endless and you won't know the "good deals" out there until you get it rammed up your butt without KY. For the record - my squadron after my last deployment gave up 5 senior Capts for FAC/IA (3 FAC, 2 IA) and 3 1stLt's for FAC/IA (1 FAC, 2 IA).
If you survive that first cut, you will get a new ground job - and these are totally different than the ones as a 1stLt. These are Admin Officer, Assistant Operations Officer, Pilot Training Officer, NATOPS Officer, Aviation Safety Officer, Assistant Logistics Officer (sometimes Logistic Officer), Flightline OIC, Airframes OIC, Flight Equipment OIC, Ordnance OIC, Toolroom OIC (this is the guy that barely survived the HAC to FAC cut), Assistant Maintenance Officer, and QA Officer. These jobs are generally better than the ones as a 1stLt, because you actually have Marines to lead.
From here, some squadrons differ in philosophies. My squadron had essentially a maintenance track, and a tactical track. If you were selected for the maintenance track, you became a maintenance officer, made section lead, then FCP (functional check pilot), and then spent life downstairs quite a bit, testing aircraft and leading Marines. They got you through division lead and Terrain Flight Instructor (to be credible in your MOS), but you were primarily a maintenance guy. Nothing wrong with this, but it wasn't for me. I was put through our tactical track. I had to suffer through staying in the Operations department, but after becoming a section leader and going to MAWTS-1 for the academic portion of WTI, I was rocketed through the following syllabuses: TERFI, Division Lead, NSI (Night Systems Instructor), Assault Flight Lead, and WTI (Weapons and Tactics Instructor). Remember how I went from HAC to Section Lead in 8 months? I went through all 5 of those syllabuses in less than 6 months. I was worn out to say the least.
You will then deploy again, build experience and most importantly - talk to the monitor. You will generally know when you are going to be on the movers list. The requirement is 4 years time on station and 2 deployments. Now it's pretty much 4 1/2 years, and 3 deployments, but that's because everyone is strected thin. You can move an any sort of B-Billet you want (hell, you can even stay in the fleet and go to another squadron you just can't stay in yours). There's flight instructor, VMR-1 (search and rescue), flying OSO, OSO, MOI, HQMC (a bunch there), EWS, recruiting, FAC tours, etc... They can be DIFOP (Duty Involving Flight Operations) or DIFDEN (Duty Involving Flight Denied) orders. Good news - you still get flight pay which pisses off the grunts. When talking to the monitor, keep this is mind - if you volunteer for a shitty, big green weanie billet (i.e. - deploying FAC tour), you will almost be guaranteed to get what you want after that. I went on a deploying FAC tour and had orders to VMR-1 (flying Phrogs and the UC-35 Cessna Citation) until I decided it was time to get out.
Hope this helps, and I can answer other questions if you have them...
Thorough. Thank you.
NO! Sometimes your number comes up for a "unexpected opportunity to excel" sometimes through no or little fault of your own. I went on a FAC tour after one pump and 3 years in the Squadron, went back to an HMLA after as a much better Attack Pilot and got all my Quals, no worries, wouldnt have traded the FAC experiences for anything.
A FAC tour is one of the rare occurances where good career move meets fun tour. A FAC tour done well is about the best thing you can do as a Captain to set up for possible career success. Take a look at Squadron (all TMS)CO bios I would venture a guess that 75-80% have been FACs (higher percentage than any other B billet). The Marine Corps is the Infantry (accept it). If you as an Aviator can do well with the Grunts that means a lot, I promise that there will be more Grunts than Aviators on most promotion/selection boards.
A FAC tour done well (Combat perhaps) is as good and perhaps better than MAWTS IP in the grand sceme of things and far outpaces things like MOI, TPS and Flight School.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
It really depends... If you mean after your first tour (3-4 years in a squadron) and you've achieved enough quals to be considered credible in your MOS, than a FAC tour is actually career enhancing.
If by after first tour you mean after you've been in the squadron for 18 months-2 years and you're still not a section lead, than a FAC tour is actually career enhancing.
Notice I said the same thing? A FAC tour is career enhancing no matter when you do it. However, all I was trying to get at was if you go too early (before you establish yourself, or after you've established yourself as a shitbird) you might have difficulties when you return to your community.
Harrier Dude
Living the dream
Run away. Run away fast. Not a good deal at all. If you have to do it, then "bloom where you're planted", but it would be much better to do just about anything else.
For the original poster:
As a fixed wing guy, it's not quite the same as the haze-EX that the chopper dudes do to each other on their first tours.
You will fly, work your ground jobs (there are less than half of the pilots to give them to), and at the 3-4 year mark you'll either be quietly shuffled off to some crap job (never to be heard from again) or go to 1 of about 4 places.
1. FAC tour- it is what you make of it. There's a thread somewhere about this talked in detail.
2. EWS- I'd rather just mail it in and get the X instead of wasting my family's time over 2 moves in a year.
3. Training Command- Great for getting hours and getting out, neutral to your career if done as a captain, not so much if done as a major.
4. FRS- If you have the hours/quals/reputation to do it (and timing) you get hours and stay current in your MOS. You won't lose your quals when you come back to the fleet.
In any case, do your best and you'll be fine (or, you won't do fine but you can live with the fact you gave 100% and didn't play politics to get ahead).
Good luck. PM with specific questions.
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Not to mention, you're in Quantico... That gives them the opportunity to grab you to be the monitor, work at TECOM, die a slow death at a desk in HQMC...
I haven't done a FAC tour myself. Everyone I know that has done one has loved it. Some volunteered and some were voluntold. Those that got picked weren't happy at first but still enjoyed it once they got to their battalion. In the past few years, the guys coming back from FAC tours have gotten first shot at the list of available billets. Some have chosen to do another tour in their fleet squadron and some have chosen to go to the training command or to the RAG.
Why assume he is going helos? He might be one of the lucky ones and go C-130's, Harriers, F-18's or, if the gods really smile on him, Prowlers.........
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Because it's a safe assumption
Lucky? Nope. Unlucky if you ask me.He might be one of the lucky ones and go C-130's, Harriers, F-18's or, if the gods really smile on him, Prowlers.........