Marine F-22s

[phrogpilot73]

Well shit, I thought MCMAP was the best bet.

Nope, that's "McNinja". The fast food, drive through version... Coasties can go live in Japan for a year, and become real ninjas. Ninjas are sweet.

 

[Random Task]

On the plus side, it would be an easy transition from primary to the EMB-314

 

[pourts]

Can the Super T recover aboard the LHD, as well as take off from it with a mission loadout?

I am guessing not yet, and it would require a fair amount of $development$.

I thought the F-22 was deemed nearly incapable of A/G, CAS, and pretty much everything else besides A/A.

I doubt that, since you can do some good low-threat CAS with a sensor pod, JDAM, and a level lay-down. I think if VX-9 got Raptors they could get them tested up or add some new software pretty quickly.

Three different aircraft is kind of the opposite line of thinking when the F-35 is supposed to "minimize" aircraft/pipelines/parts/training/supply.

Yep, I said the same thing.

Instead of thinking out of the box, I think he is throwing mud against the wall and hoping something sticks...

I thought it took some balls to write considering how many higher-ups have stuck their neck out for the F-35B. Its pretty much the "party" line. Speak ill of it (or even just fly a Rhino on a cross country and get spotted...) at your own peril.

http://www.neptunuslex.com/2010/11/20/rumint/

http://www.neptunuslex.com/2010/12/03/opt-out/

 

[pourts]

Let's see here: the Navy, which actually has engaged enemy a/c in every U.S. conflict since WWII is buying Super Hornets for the air-to-mud & AA roles, but the USMC, which has fought very few dogfights since Korea must have an F-22 or F-35 for the air-to-mud role (at 3X the cost) because the F-18E/F is too outdated for their needs? Am I losing it, or is someone else smoking dope here?

Someone else? The author and...?

Methinks you exaggerate a bit, but I understand your comment.

The proposal isn't about the USMC wearing scarves and looking down their noses at "those mud moving Navy guys who suck at BFM." Its about getting an advanced, stealthy, and capable plane for less than the F-35 since it looks like its getting cut. Yes, the Rhino is an option (and I think the best), and it has been mentioned maybe once or twice in the past . The point I found the most interesting was that the F-35 will be more expensive than the raptor.

 

[Flash]

.....The point I found the most interesting was that the F-35 will be more expensive than the raptor.

Not quite. It really depends on how you count in the development costs and how many F-35s are built. If you take just the cost of the plane into account it often costs much less but when you hear prices for some weapon systems, especially ones with very expensive development costs like the B-2, the development costs are wrapped up with the cost of the planes and that is how you get a really expensive number. For example, a B-2 might cost $700 million but when you add in the development costs and divide by the number of planes you get $2 billion per plane.

Another factor is that often times earlier in a production run a plane will be more expensive to build but after a bit of experience, faster production and other efficiencies the price will likely drop a bit, the F-22 production run will be a bit too short for many of those benefits to be realized. An excellent example of this is the F/A-18E/F/G which has benefited from a long production line and large, steady orders.

One thing I have noticed that a lot of critics have been doing lately is playing with those numbers, using only the production price for the F-22 while using development and early production prices combined for the F-35 to compare and contrast the two aircraft. Both numbers are truthful but are 'different' truths, apples to oranges. This is especially the case for the 'low rate initial production' (LRIP) batches of the F-35 being ordered now instead of full-scale production which the F-35 has not gotten to yet, LRIP costs are almost certainly going to be a lot higher than the full-scale production costs due to the ongoing testing program and the changes to production and even design for some parts and pieces of the aircraft that result from the testing. Those costs will not be much of a factor during full-scale production after the testing and design tweaks are almost all done.

My two cents is that the F-35 is the choice for the USMC, a mix of B and C planned now would be more than adequate (though the B can probably be blamed for a lot of the development issues with the overall F-35 program to begin with). The F/A-18E/F is a good solution now and in the near future but with current and emerging threat systems to aircraft being designed, tested and fielded by our enemies it makes a lot more sense to have the F-35 than the Super Hornet in the longer term. If we stuck with the thing that was 'good enough' today we would still be flying Hellcats and Corsairs, it would be a helluva a lot of fun but you would end up dead a lot quicker.

 

[Fog]

Except for Desert Storm I, Marine TacAir (fixed-wing, not helos) has pretty much flown in uncontested airspace since Korea. If your primary roles are (a) serving the grunt & (b) flying CAS, why buy a 5th Generation F-35 @ $100MM per copy when a 4.5 Generation Super Hornet @ $50MM per copy does the job as well, or better, at half the price in an environment of shrinking defense $$ for all services? JMHO.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Except for Desert Storm I, Marine TacAir (fixed-wing, not helos) has pretty much flown in uncontested airspace since Korea. If your primary roles are (a) serving the grunt & (b) flying CAS, why buy a 5th Generation F-35 @ $100MM per copy when a 4.5 Generation Super Hornet @ $50MM per copy does the job as well, or better, at half the price in an environment of shrinking defense $$ for all services? JMHO.

Do you mean "uncontested" in terms of air-to-air threats? Or are you talking about the "zero threat" environment that we see today including MANPADS and AAA?

Serious question.

 

[Pags]

I doubt that, since you can do some good low-threat CAS with a sensor pod, JDAM, and a level lay-down. I think if VX-9 got Raptors they could get them tested up or add some new software pretty quickly.

There's no such thing as a cheap software fix.

 

[phrogpilot73]

...why buy a 5th Generation F-35 @ $100MM per copy when a 4.5 Generation Super Hornet @ $50MM per copy does the job as well, or better, at half the price in an environment of shrinking defense $$ for all services?

Can a 4.5 Generation Super Hornet operate off amphibious shipping? The MEU often goes off alone and unafraid, and as a former BLT member - we appreciate having TACAIR as well as skids for CAS. They each bring something different to the party. I understand shrinking $$$, but in case you haven't noticed - the Marine Corps tends to hold on to aircraft for a LONG time...

 

[MIDNJAC]

Can a 4.5 Generation Super Hornet operate off amphibious shipping? The MEU often goes off alone and unafraid, and as a former BLT member - we appreciate having TACAIR as well as skids for CAS. They each bring something different to the party. I understand shrinking $$$, but in case you haven't noticed - the Marine Corps tends to hold on to aircraft for a LONG time...

My honest question is what organic tacair in the MEU brings to the table. Are MEU's that seperated from the rest of our joint forces that they absolutely need to provide the jets for themselves? Or can forward deployed Hornets and AF dudes fill that role? I know there are a lot of guys, including yourself, that have a lot of experience with this, so I am truly just asking here

 

[KBayDog]

I understand shrinking $$$, but in case you haven't noticed - the Marine Corps tends to hold on to aircraft for a LONG time...

Not long enough, in certain cases.

 

[Fog]

Apologies to HD & PP73. I meant uncontested in the air-to-air realm. Obviously Marine TACAIR has seen lots of SA groundfire, etc. If the MEUs must have the F-35B, so be it. I just hope Marine TACAIR doesn't suck up all the $$ available for Marine aviation. Those H-46s can't fly for another 45 years.

 

[MIDNJAC]

^ I think they spent the piggy bank on the V-22 there.....pretty sure I've heard the H-46 is going away completely in the next year or two from my Phrog buddies

 

[KBayDog]

Those H-46s can't fly for another 45 years.

They could, if they were allowed to.

 

[helolumpy]

My honest question is what organic tacair in the MEU brings to the table. Are MEU's that seperated from the rest of our joint forces that they absolutely need to provide the jets for themselves? Or can forward deployed Hornets and AF dudes fill that role? I know there are a lot of guys, including yourself, that have a lot of experience with this, so I am truly just asking here

The MAGTF is built around a combined arms construct. The Marines have to plan on being the first to arrive on station, so the need forced entry capabilities.
Do the always need fixed wing CAS? No.
But since you can't guarantee the won't need it either they have to plan on having it available and under the command and control of the MAGTF commander.

You can't always plan on having a shore base to operate from, which is one of the main selling points of a $13.5 Billion super carrier.
You can't plan for every contingency, so the prudent decision is to bring max capability since "ya never know"