masters degree

[Flash]

I am currently doing EMBA through NPS. It isn't too terribly bad so far, but certain weeks it can be a bear. The program isn't available for Marines, so no luck for you. Getting your masters in residence is pretty much a career ender for any Naval Aviator as far as I know. I am sure others have their own experiences.

Not necessarily, if you do it at the right place and the right time. Go to one of the staff colleges and split your time with a disassociated and that has been a boon to most guys I have seen do that. Go to a war college and that is even better, though later in your career.

 

[Brett327]

I'm a bit frustrated by how the Marine Corps treats external PME. As far as I can tell, my next opportunity to get a resident Master's at a civilian institution is either a fellowship at the ILS level...or to get out at the end of my EOS, get my degree, and then come back in.

I think the "resident school=career ender" is a dumb attitude. Some of the principal individuals who've been on the ball with regard to irregular nature of OIF - David Petraeus and David McMaster, hold Ph.D.'s from Princeton and UNC, respectively. John Nagl, who helped author FM 3-24, is a Rhodes Scholar. Gen. Petraeus has been a staunch advocate of civilian graduate education for officers. Rigorous resident programs in relevant fields do make better warfighters, and it's a shame if the Navy and Marine Corps don't see it that way.

Phrogdriver, what are these other rabbit holes? I'm aware of the Olin scholarship, and of the SEP programs in education and history as well as a few limited fields at NPS and AFIT. I imagine you'd be locked into something relevant to what you studied but I haven't seen anything in the MARADMIN's to indicate what implications it has on your following assignments.

Has anyone had any experience with Norwich University or AMU's online programs?

I doubt that Petraeus et al just took 2-3 years off to go to school as a JO. That's what we're talking about here. The culture is changing slowly in the Navy WRT post graduate education (and that's a good thing), but there are other issues to consider. Fundamentally, the Navy needs its most experienced and proficient people on the tip of the spear - those who they're screening for DH and command. It's hard to argue that people who have taken 3 years away from operational types of duty are the best suited for those jobs. The Navy (or other services for that matter) can't groom every JO as though they're destined for Flag rank or combatant command. Those who do end up in those positions are given the requisite opportunities at the appropriate times in their career track.

Brett

 

[phrogdriver]

I'm a bit frustrated by how the Marine Corps treats external PME. As far as I can tell, my next opportunity to get a resident Master's at a civilian institution is either a fellowship at the ILS level...or to get out at the end of my EOS, get my degree, and then come back in.

Olmsted Scholarship is another good one, that will get you studying overseas as well. The FAO/RAO programs have avenues for graduate study. There are a couple of law programs as well, but they will expect you to be...surprise! A lawyer.

I'm kind of surprised that you would want to get out and come back in. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're doing it for the Marine Corps, it won't care, and it may be very difficult to get back in. If you're doing it for later civilian employment, then do it at the end of your career. If you just like the intellectual stimulation, just realize you may be in the wrong place. MARINES...Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not ESential.

Our T/O really doesn't have the fat in it to have lots of Os out getting degrees without specific paybacks. It's almost that simple. Factor in the money and there you have it. It's hard to justify a large tangible expense for an intangible payback. I don't think many believe a better educated officer corps would be bad, but it doesn't come free. Especially in the aviation community, time away from one's MOS is considered something to minimize.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I'm a bit frustrated by how the Marine Corps treats external PME. As far as I can tell, my next opportunity to get a resident Master's at a civilian institution is either a fellowship at the ILS level...or to get out at the end of my EOS, get my degree, and then come back in.

Not really an option brother... As an officer to get out (after resigning your commission) you had better read VERY carefully the MARCORSEPSMAN... It's not like you can just get out, get a Masters, and come back in...

 

[mmx1]

Well, I suppose that further narrows the options.

 

[mmx1]

I'm kind of surprised that you would want to get out and come back in. It doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're doing it for the Marine Corps, it won't care, and it may be very difficult to get back in. If you're doing it for later civilian employment, then do it at the end of your career. If you just like the intellectual stimulation, just realize you may be in the wrong place. MARINES...Muscles Are Required Intelligence Not ESential.

I want to win the long war so I can hang up the uniform, go home, and do ... whatever it is civilians do. That's my big picture/endstate/whatever. If getting an MIA or MS will help me make a better contribution to the fight, then I'll do it regardless of whether or not the Marine Corps gives me credit in my OQR or fitrep for it.

In my last semester at school I had the good fortune to take two graduate seminars that shaped the way I look at war, our ongoing conflicts, and my place in it. They also disabused me of my formerly held neocon illusions. I believe they've set me up for success as an officer, though it's clearly too early to tell.

If I had the time I would have continued and gotten a masters in IR before commissioning but I was already contracted for OCC. I've been trying to do some catch-up studying on my own but it's completely different without peers and teachers to bounce ideas off of. In a sense I'm trying to tidy up unfinished business, but principally because I think it's of benefit to the Corps - whether it agrees or not. I consider this part of my PME.

My rationale behind getting out was simply that if the Corps wouldn't pay me to go to school on its time, I'd just have to do it on my time and then pick up where I left off with the Marine Corps. Clearly I didn't give it that much thought - but it is at least 8 years down the road.

P.S. my sig seems a bit contentious in this context. I originally adopted it when I was a young(er) firebrand trying to restore ROTC to my alma mater. I am, of course, not calling anyone a fool.

 

[Brett327]

None of that IR stuff is going to help you do your job in the military unless you end up as a policy wonk in 20 or 30 years. I would disabuse yourself of the notion that academia is some kind of panacea for military excellence. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you come across as someone who thinks they're entitled to something they're not.

Brett

 

[mmx1]

None of that IR stuff is going to help you do your job in the military unless you end up as a policy wonk in 20 or 30 years. I would disabuse yourself of the notion that academia is some kind of panacea for military excellence. Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you come across as someone who thinks they're entitled to something they're not.

Brett

I don't believe I'm entitled to anything. I'm personally pursuing something I think is beneficial, regardless of whether the Marine Corps pays or endorses it. (And by pursuing, I mean doing it 8 years down the line). Since I think it is a valuable experience for officers, I wish the Corps would endorse or condone it on a wider level than it currently does. But that's by no means a personal entitlement.

Doesn't military excellence also include understanding your enemy and the environment you operate in? No, it's not a substitute for military leadership, but it sure as hell is an essential part of it. Graduate school's not simply policy wonks having at it. I don't give a hoot about realism, liberalism, neo-realism or all that other lovely stuff they covered in undergrad IR. I was a math major in undergrad and walked into these seminars not knowing one from the other.

But guess what? The stuff I learned in Col. Parker's 5-month seminar on Low Intensity Conflicts, I got a 5-hour reader's digest version of it 12 months later at TBS in our CoIN/Cultural Factors/Public Affairs classes - classes they've just recently developed. And they're trying to catch up our infantry students at IOC by having them bury their heads in Galuga and other academic works in between their FEX's. Battalion commanders would come in to talk to us about lessons learned from Iraq, and echo some of the same things we were discussing in 2005 at the same time they were learning it firsthand in Iraq. A Master's level program does not produce academics or policy wonks (it's not nearly enough schooling). It's designed to be relevant to junior-level stakeholders who've worked a few years in their field, somewhat parallel to our Captains and Majors. Indeed, in my limited exposure to that school there were 3 O-3's in the Master's program.

Admittedly, this is more relevant to the grunts and other ground guys than to me in the wing, and I hope they get the educational opportunities I had and seek. I don't know how irregular warfare affects the wing or how it can adapt to the fight the way our ground side is. That's a question I'm trying to answer, and I expect some part of that answer to be found in academia.

I understand the manpower and fiscal drawbacks. What I resent is the notion that if you're educating yourself outside a service school then it's a selfish thing and not for the good of the service. That just flies in the face of everything they've told us about how essential it is to conduct PME and professional reading.

 

[phrogdriver]

I'm sure you got some great stuff in school. However, graduate study is more applicable, from the Marine Corps' point of view, to field-grade officers and above. They do offer a fair number of programs at that level. Especially at LtCol +, there are programs to go to--the JFK School of Goverment, Mershon School, etc. It makes a lot more sense as an investment there, benefiting senior decision makers, vice for a lt/capt, who's not going to really employ it.

If you think furthering your education is the be-all-end-all, there are at least three grad school extensions at Camp Lejuene, to give one example, plus a major university 1 hr down the road. I'm sure San Diego has even more. But you'll have to do it ON YOUR OWN TIME, and (partly) ON YOUR OWN DIME. If you think it's worth it, its there for you.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Addtionally, critical thought and understanding of a country's culture is really not needed in the cockpit. You don't need to empathize with Hajji to land in an LZ and drop off pallets of water for the grunts... There is a graduate level school for aviation in the Marine Corps, and it's MAWTS-1's WTI course. I think you will find that it is difficult at best (I didn't start working on my Masters until my B-Billet), and as a young pilot - you need to be focusing on becoming a better pilot.

 

[mmx1]

Roger.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Graduate degrees shouldn't be in your scan just yet

I vehemently disagree. Anyone contemplating a career in the military whether it's for a few short years or for 20 and beyond should understand the appropriate road marks along the way. Though there may be things taking place right now that has a priority in one's time, it doesn't mean you shouldn't at least start gathering the information.

For Navy, non-observed FITREPs = bad for your career.

Not necessarily. I think you may be referring to non-observed FITREPs in naval aviation. However, many other communities most certainly put a value on postgraduate education. They look highly upon getting that masters degree whether you do it at NPS in residence, at a civilian institution in residence, or even via distance learning on your own time.

Fundamentally, the Navy needs its most experienced and proficient people on the tip of the spear

Then fundamentally, they should be sending the RAG instructors, shouldn't they?

If you think furthering your education is the be-all-end-all

I don't think that's what he's saying at all.

Addtionally, critical thought and understanding of a country's culture is really not needed in the cockpit.

So if you had to choose only one, are you a pilot or an officer?

 

[Brett327]

Then fundamentally, they should be sending the RAG instructors, shouldn't they?

You're right, and they do. Many RAG guys end up as Super-JOs, and CAG/CCSG staffs where their war-fighting expertise is brought to bear.

@ MMX: What the two Phrog guys said pretty much sums up my point. Education is great, but not terribly applicable for the average CGO who's operating on a tactical level. The notion that every officer should (or can) be some kind of über-educated diplomat is neither particularly useful nor is it a responsible use of already limited resources within DOD.

Brett

 

[HeyJoe]

Addtionally, critical thought and understanding of a country's culture is really not needed in the cockpit. You don't need to empathize with Hajji to land in an LZ and drop off pallets of water for the grunts...

Agree and disagree. Up to Desert Shield, not much was out there on the culture of the countries and we took advantage of our embarked SEAL Platoon expertise and in exchange for using our Ready Room, they gave us in depth insights into all the countries in area in which we might go down and how to approach the locals and what they prevailing attitude was, etc. Very helpful, but do you need a Masters in IR? No.

There is a graduate level school for aviation in the Marine Corps, and it's MAWTS-1's WTI course. I think you will find that it is difficult at best (I didn't start working on my Masters until my B-Billet), and as a young pilot - you need to be focusing on becoming a better pilot.

Agree that MAWTS and NSAWC offer training in your trade vice the vast majority of what is available in graduate studies unless you get to Monterey. I saw what my Air Force counterparts went through to get their sheepskin in order to be competitive for 0-5 and the majority of their degrees gave them nothing that was applicable to their day jobs then or n the future unless you believe the Air Force is so corporate that they all need MBAs.

 

[phrogdriver]

Damn, Steve, couldn't you just make one big post, rather than 4 posts, one after another?

MMX does seem to have a huge hankering for a graduate degree. Thing is, for a company-grade O, which is more useful, 2 more years in your MOS or a service PME school, or a graduate degree in international relations? I'd argue the former. As one gets up in responsibility, the scale starts to tip the other way. Should there be more civilian education in the military? Yes. For most company-grade officers, though, it's more of an exercise in self-improvement than professional development, and should be done on one's own time, except in certain circumstances.