McKiernan OUT ... McChrystal IN

[Brett327]

Problem is, they ain't destroyed yet. The remnants of AQ and the Taliban just retreated across the border and have since regrouped and reoccupied a lot of area. The problem now is how to find, fix and destroy them without pissing off the tribes. Piss off the tribes, absolutely nothing gets done.

If we leave, the thinking is the current government will fall and we'll be right back where we started. I think in both Afghanistan and Iraq, we've given up on the "pro-American" gov't and we'll just settle for a stable one that doesn't actively hate us.

Agreed. I think the ultimate end-state in both theaters is regional stability - fighting terrorism has kind of become incidental to that goal. Until Afghanistan is reasonably stable, Pakistan will be (more) unstable, then India, etc, etc.

Brett

 

[wlawr005]

@wlawr005: What is this cultural diversity you speak of? We were no less culturally diverse in the 40s than today - the ethnic groups were just different (Italians, Irish, Scandinavian and Chinese). You can decry a lack of unity today, but I don't think it has ever been very different. The threat we face today is not an existential threat, even though it is sometimes billed that way, and people realize this. You can make a pretty good argument that after all was said and done in WWII, the US would probably not have been invaded by the Japanese or the Germans, but I digress.

Cultural diversity is different than ethnic diversity. There is no way to even compare the difference between now and then...it's common place for 13 yr old kids to either get pregnant or bring a gun to school...CNN pipes 24 hrs of nonstop shit into the brains of America's youth, and kids these days are more worried about what they are entitled to than what they can acheive (so I'm ecstatic that we had the largest voter turnout among 18-22 yr olds in history).

You can make a good (valid) argument about anything but a sound argument is the one whose conclusion is true because it's premises are actually true. If not for America, the European Union would use the duechmark and Hawaii would be the eastern most Japanese fishing village. America's problem today is that we always think everyone else is bullshitting...those fuckers would have killed us if they had the chance.

 

[Brett327]

Cultural diversity is different than ethnic diversity. There is no way to even compare the difference between now and then...it's common place for 13 yr old kids to either get pregnant or bring a gun to school...CNN pipes 24 hrs of nonstop shit into the brains of America's youth, and kids these days are more worried about what they are entitled to than what they can acheive (so I'm ecstatic that we had the largest voter turnout among 18-22 yr olds in history).

You can make a good (valid) argument about anything but a sound argument is the one whose conclusion is true because it's premises are actually true. If not for America, the European Union would use the duechmark and Hawaii would be the eastern most Japanese fishing village. America's problem today is that we always think everyone else is bullshitting...those fuckers would have killed us if they had the chance.

I don't agree that our "cultural" differences today are that significant in the grand scheme. Our society is constantly evolving and changing. Thusly, each previous generation bitches about the latest one - it's axiomatic. How does this affect our ability to wage unconventional warfare today?

At any rate, I'm not arguing that WWII wasn't important or that losing wouldn't have had serious consequences - just putting things in perspective for you.

Brett

 

[exhelodrvr]

I think his point is that with terrorism there is no one leader, no one army, and no one country we can simply carpet bomb into submission (unlike WW2 or the Cold War for instance).

This has never been a war against terrorism. It has always been a war against Islamic extremists. And that is something specific that can be targeted. The question is whether we are willing to forgo the political correctness enough to do it properly.

 

[Brett327]

This has never been a war against terrorism. It has always been a war against Islamic extremists. And that is something specific that can be targeted. The question is whether we are willing to forgo the political correctness enough to do it properly.

Same difference. How do you propose we go about this - politics aside, that is?

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

Same difference. How do you propose we go about this - politics aside, that is?

Brett

Unfortunately, I don't think you can fight a war w/out 'politics' being a major consideration. It's just the degree to which you're willing to let 'political considerations' drive the effort(s) -- as opposed to military strategy & tactics -- that chaps me.

Actually ... I'm more "worried" @ Pakistan and what's going on there -- I don't think they're gonna' make it, assurances from their government aside.

Then what??

 

[wlawr005]

I don't agree that our "cultural" differences today are that significant in the grand scheme. Our society is constantly evolving and changing. Thusly, each previous generation bitches about the latest one - it's axiomatic. How does this affect our ability to wage unconventional warfare today?

At any rate, I'm not arguing that WWII wasn't important or that losing wouldn't have had serious consequences - just putting things in perspective for you.

Brett

It's not just that our society is changing...kids today have no idea what's going on. To put things into perspective for you, I am 25 and a freshman in college. Most of the kids in my classes are 18 years old, now that makes them 10 when the world trade centers were attacked. None of them, and it has been discussed, are politically aware of the significance of the attacks, but do agree that the war in the middle east is "wrong". By the way, those same 18-22 year olds are the ones who are holding formal protests about the war at college campuses, disseminating anti-war propaganda around their student bodies, and forming "opinions" on why the war is wrong. Why, if cultures are not so important, did Obama spend most of his money targeting this age group and taking advantage of the anti-war sentiment? If you ask these kids what their "perspective" on war is, they will tell you it's wrong...but they can't give you any solution to the problem. As a matter of fact, the only opinion they have on war is what they see on TV! Which leads us back to the media is a politically biased tool of the insurgency argument. That, Sir, is an example of how cultural differences affect our ability to conduct warfare...they hold the rope that binds our hands.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Actually ... I'm more "worried" @ Pakistan and what's going on there -- I don't think they're gonna' make it, assurances from their government aside.

Then what??

This is just one asshole lieutenant's opinion, but I think the country's going to keep on as it has been, whipsawing between elected but impotent civilian governments and military juntas which are competent but don't have the support of the people. AFAIK, that's what the country's been doing since independence and the partition. I just don't know whether there are enough fundamentalist crazies to let a Taliban/Wahabbist government sieze power. In the tribal areas, yes. In Pakistan at large, I doubt it.

The Pakistani military is very competent. They and the Indians inherited British traditions of Western military professionalism. Their nuke force is supposed to be extremely good, too, and I really can't see them handing over the football (or whatever they call it...rugby ball?) to some mad mullahs down from the mountains. Conceivably one or two weapons get loose in the event of an all-out collapse by the government, which is bad, but nowhere near the nightmare scenarios the media keeps painting. More likely they'd be on planes on their way out of the country long before then.

The big question is whether the Paks will trust India to stay out of Kashmir enough so that they can re-orient their military primarily toward mountain fighting in the NW Frontier. That hate is very old and has more or less defined the two countries, but I think they may be coming around to the idea that they both have bigger fish (China and Iran/Afghanistan/Islamists) to fry.

 

[wlawr005]

on a different note...McChrystal might already have some public heat

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/us_world/Tillman-Family-Questions-.html

 

[mmx1]

It's not just that our society is changing...kids today have no idea what's going on. To put things into perspective for you, I am 25 and a freshman in college. Most of the kids in my classes are 18 years old, now that makes them 10 when the world trade centers were attacked. None of them, and it has been discussed, are politically aware of the significance of the attacks, but do agree that the war in the middle east is "wrong". By the way, those same 18-22 year olds are the ones who are holding formal protests about the war at college campuses, disseminating anti-war propaganda around their student bodies, and forming "opinions" on why the war is wrong. Why, if cultures are not so important, did Obama spend most of his money targeting this age group and taking advantage of the anti-war sentiment? If you ask these kids what their "perspective" on war is, they will tell you it's wrong...but they can't give you any solution to the problem. As a matter of fact, the only opinion they have on war is what they see on TV! Which leads us back to the media is a politically biased tool of the insurgency argument. That, Sir, is an example of how cultural differences affect our ability to conduct warfare...they hold the rope that binds our hands.

When have kids ever known anything? How much do you think the average 18-year old WWII draftee knew about European or Japanese politics? Why do their opinions warrant "quotation marks"?

 

[wlawr005]

Why did the quotation marks around opinion offend you, but not the ones around wrong? Did you even read my post

 

[Brett327]

It's not just that our society is changing...kids today have no idea what's going on. To put things into perspective for you, I am 25 and a freshman in college. Most of the kids in my classes are 18 years old, now that makes them 10 when the world trade centers were attacked. None of them, and it has been discussed, are politically aware of the significance of the attacks, but do agree that the war in the middle east is "wrong". By the way, those same 18-22 year olds are the ones who are holding formal protests about the war at college campuses, disseminating anti-war propaganda around their student bodies, and forming "opinions" on why the war is wrong. Why, if cultures are not so important, did Obama spend most of his money targeting this age group and taking advantage of the anti-war sentiment? If you ask these kids what their "perspective" on war is, they will tell you it's wrong...but they can't give you any solution to the problem. As a matter of fact, the only opinion they have on war is what they see on TV! Which leads us back to the media is a politically biased tool of the insurgency argument. That, Sir, is an example of how cultural differences affect our ability to conduct warfare...they hold the rope that binds our hands.

Hate to break it to you, but that's what young people do - always have. From the beat generation, to the hippies, to the punks, to the SOCAL Starbucks crowd and other groups of today. Besides, I think you're a little young to be pumping your fist and making "kids these days" statements. I went to college in my mid 30s - how do you think it was for me? Bottom line, people are free to be how they want - stupid & ill informed, or brilliant but with a differing opinion which is as valid and considered as your own. You're powerless to change it, so why worry about it? It's a waste of your time.

Brett

 

[wlawr005]

Hate to break it to you, but that's what young people do - always have. From the beat generation, to the hippies, to the punks, to the SOCAL Starbucks crowd and other groups of today. Besides, I think you're a little young to be pumping your fist and making "kids these days" statements. I went to college in my mid 30s - how do you think it was for me? Bottom line, people are free to be how they want - stupid & ill informed, or brilliant but with a differing opinion which is as valid and considered as your own. You're powerless to change it, so why worry about it? It's a waste of your time.

Brett

I agree with you Sir, it just pisses me off. I don't mean to seem to be "pumping my fist", but I also don't consider myself a kid. I think that the state of affairs is generally f*d up in this country right now, even excluding the state of America's youth.

I guess I'm just scared there won't be any more war left for me when it's my turn to sling lettuce with the mighty '60

 

[Brett327]

I agree with you Sir, it just pisses me off. I don't mean to seem to be "pumping my fist", but I also don't consider myself a kid. I think that the state of affairs is generally f*d up in this country right now, even excluding the state of America's youth.

I guess I'm just scared there won't be any more war left for me when it's my turn to sling lettuce with the mighty '60

Yeah, well war ain't all it's cracked up to be. Besides, if I were you, I'd set my sights a little higher than HSC if "warheads on foreheads" is your life goal. Word of advice: resist the temptation to return to a platform that is familiar. I did the P-3 and SH-60 thing as a crewman - enjoyed both, but am very happy I'm in the TACAIR community now. /jack

Brett

 

[wlawr005]

Yeah, well war ain't all it's cracked up to be. Besides, if I were you, I'd set my sights a little higher than HSC if "warheads on foreheads" is your life goal. Word of advice: resist the temptation to return to a platform that is familiar. I did the P-3 and SH-60 thing as a crewman - enjoyed both, but am very happy I'm in the TACAIR community now. /jack

Brett

For sure, the only way I'm going back to the boat is jets, otherwise it's P-8's for me