Mexican Generals; Why so many ribbons?

[MasterBates]

My dad has very funny stories about it when he is having a lucid day.

Me, him, and my brother laugh. My mom, my sister in law, and my girlfriend look at us like we are crazy.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Couldn't the same be said for the Purple Heart then? Someone had the bad luck to get shot or injured, just as MB's dad says.

It could but I agree with the current precedence of the Purple Heart because it involved physical hurt or death. Is this out of line with my stance on the POW medal? No because a wounded POW or one that dies in captivity is also awarded the Purple Heart.

I actually do have a family / personal stake in this and it doesn't change my stance. My Mom's cousin / my second cousin who I knew and admired up until I was 11 years old was a very popular Navy pilot, former commander of the Blue Angels and the last person shot down & captured in the Viet Nam war (14 hours before the cease fire). He never came back. His other awards mean a lot more to his immediate family than his POW medal.

 

[Catmando]

... former commander of the Blue Angels and the last person shot down & captured in the Viet Nam war 914 hours before the cease fire). He never came back. ..

I still remember, and will never forget the day he was shot down. It was a shock to all of us so close by in the Gulf of Tonkin. May he forever rest in peace.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Speaking to bridge watches, I can only relate my experience on a Carrier. The CO and Suppo did not want chops up on the bridge standing OOD underway for a couple of reasons, first- there are a plethora of line O's that need the qual for advancement, it doesn't do Chops any good at all. Second Suppo wants the time spent on Supply issues, beans, bullets, parts, nothing else. I know this because I asked. The answer was "Oh, so your division is running perfectly huh?" - The CO obviously agrees that the core function of the chops is more important then standing OOD underway, or else chops would be on the OOD underway watchbill.

On the TR we did not have enough line officers to stand the watches and we many times had to use Chiefs and CWOs to fill the gaps in the bridge watch bill and maintain the normal number of duty sections. Every DH made the same arguement about their officers' job being their prime duty and not being able to spare them for the watch bill. Yet is was only the Supply officers, Docs and shooters/Air Dept (but Docs & Shooters are understandable) that did not have to stand duty either on the bridge, in combat, in Engineering or in the reactor. The Supply officers got away with it because the Suppo was a couple of years senior to the Big XO and he seemed to think that gave the Suppo free rein. There was no Supply officer that was overworked on TR except for the couple of days before we got underway loading from the pier. Even unreps underway were at most a semi-long day for the them. It caused a lot of hate and discontent among the rest of the wardroom and the Suppos were not liked.

The only SWOs and Aviators on the TR that had a normal amount of rack and playstation were air wing or flag staff, not ship's company.

My roommate was actually considered the most knowledgable, best Suppo on the ship. But his work schedule, and that of every Suppo onboard, was far from brutal and basically a 9 to 5 office job.

My brother's carrier (JFK) was the same as TR so that's two similiar experiences. In fact he was the ATO so he ran the CODs and helos bringing in supplies, mail, etc. on a daily basis. For him, it was a constant battle to get any of the Suppos when he needed them. He eventually gave up and started going direct to the Supply Chiefs.

From talking with many other Aviators and SWOs during my Navy life, Suppos on small boys and subs worked a hell of a lot harder than Suppos on carriers or large deck amphibs. There they seemed to be more part of the team and part of the watch bills instead of a world to themselves.

It is what it is and I'm just relating my experience and not really complaining. As they say, pick your rate - pick your fate.

 

[HAL Pilot]

My dad has very funny stories about it when he is having a lucid day.

Me, him, and my brother laugh. My mom, my sister in law, and my girlfriend look at us like we are crazy.

One night standing OOD on the TR we came upon a fairly large sailboat with all it's sails down drifting with the proper lights for not under control burning. Getting no reply on bridge-to-bridge and seeing no signs of life, we sent a boat over. They found the owner/Captain laying on the floor in the cabin with a supply of food, water, beer and books within arm's reach. Hewas a disabled Viet Nam vet with back problems due to a war injury. His back would go out for a couple of days at a time but he'd have just enough warning pains to get ready. His Purple Heart was awarded for shrapnel injures recieved from grenade explosions. Seems he was in the process of screwing a hooker in Saigon when the VC decided to end his fun. After he got out of the hospital and medically retired, he bought his boat and had been sailing it aound ever since living off his retirement/disability check.

 

[BACONATOR]

Speaking of "Starter Kits", when you change services, you get almost a totally new "kit" after your first deployment. After my first deployment with the guard to Iraq, I added 5 ribbons just for joining the guard and "being there" (Iraq Campaign, Global War on Terror, Armed Forces Reserve, Army Service Ribbon, and Army Overseas Service Ribbon). I also added a bronze star to the NDSM. There were also 2 more unit awards (Army Presidential Unit and Army Meritorious Unit Medals).

Out of curiosity, is the Army Reg different? Because the Navy 1650 prohibits earning a GWOT-E and ICM in the same deployment, even if you meet the time in-country for both awards (ie: for those of us who spent 30 days in Iraq and then another 30 in Kuwait). One deployment = 1 ribbon. Either way, I'm sure it's a moot point for you by now.

 

[xj220]

It could but I agree with the current precedence of the Purple Heart because it involved physical hurt or death. Is this out of line with my stance on the POW medal? No because a wounded POW or one that dies in captivity is also awarded the Purple Heart.

I actually do have a family / personal stake in this and it doesn't change my stance. My Mom's cousin / my second cousin who I knew and admired up until I was 11 years old was a very popular Navy pilot, former commander of the Blue Angels and the last person shot down & captured in the Viet Nam war (14 hours before the cease fire). He never came back. His other awards mean a lot more to his immediate family than his POW medal.

Fair enough. The way I see it is that the amount of emotional and mental strain and uncertainty that comes with captivity is worth significant recognition. SERE wasn't bad because we knew they couldn't seriously hurt us and we were going home at the end of the week. In real life it's completely different. I agree that the other awards that are garnered during your time there count, but being a POW in itself shouldn't be disregarded.

 

[BackOrdered]

HAL Pilot,

You are right about DDGs. Between the bridge, CIC and the HCO tower I challenged any SWO JO claiming to stand more watch on deployment. I was also the Flying squad locker officer and got what little sleep I had randomly interrupted for drills and galley bravo fire false alarms regularly. When board time came (over 18 months was the norm for all the JOs ), I wasn't the best but far from worst, taking the exact same board as the SWOs.

What does this do for me now as an O-3 to be at my Supply shore O-6's command? Nothing. I have yet to see a situation where watchstanding impresses senior supply officers in a competitive manner. They are impressed with supply chain management, internships and logistic prowess. Even at Athens, it was put out then that watchstanding isn't going to do you any big favors. The truth is the carrier JO is going to get more face time with the supply world than a small boy Supply JO standing SWO watches.

Lastly, I know of not a single competitive billet in supply that involves standing watch. Operatonal Shore, Aviation and internships are all the rage.

With that said, you have a point. I do get a kick out of bumping into my carrier JO counterparts and trading SWSCO stories, kicking myself for not going CV. I have to agree with you here, they have it made. But again, now that me and that carrier JO are on shore duty, what is more useful? Standing SWO watches or learning how the Supply world operates?

 

[HAL Pilot]

Tiz,

Again, the same thing can be said for most communities. How much does his time as a bridge watch stander help the average P-3 guy in the rest of his career? True he is a line officer and technically eligible for command of a ship but is that really going to happen? (Theorectically, if the Suppo is the last guy standing, he could find himself in command too.) It is for the most part a wasted skill/experience but somebody has to stand the watches. My job on the carrier was Nuclear Weapons Officer, what did standing bridge watches contribute to that?

The Suppo on TR stood CDO inport. Once while anchored at Halifax, Canada I was the duty OOD underway when we started dragging the anchor with the CO ashore. The duty QM called both the CDO and me to the bridge. Although in this case the CDO wasn't the Suppo, the CDO had no clue what was going on since he'd never stood a bridge watch in his life. Whenever the ship is moving, the OOD underway is the HMFIC but try to convince a senior officer with no bridge experience who is the CDO of this fact (even though it is in the standing orders and PQS). The CDO tried to forbid me from getting the ship underway enough to steam to the anchor without the COs permission. This didn't treat the stern dock/boats very well (lots of water disturbance) and we had to cast off the boats and raise the dock which the CDO also didn't quite get (but you're affecting liberty!). Eventually I had to drop a second anchor (by this time the Navigator and Big XO were back onboard). During this whole evolution, the CDO was clueless and because of his cluelessness, he was getting in the way and causing more headaches. So here is at least one example why every officer who is assigned to a ship's company should have some experience in other than his specialty.

The whole thing goes to being a "well rounded" officer and understanding how the command you are a part of and could possible be a part of again in the future operates.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Fair enough. The way I see it is that the amount of emotional and mental strain and uncertainty that comes with captivity is worth significant recognition. SERE wasn't bad because we knew they couldn't seriously hurt us and we were going home at the end of the week. In real life it's completely different. I agree that the other awards that are garnered during your time there count, but being a POW in itself shouldn't be disregarded.

I understand what you are saying but I would also think that any front line combat Marine or Soldier also has a high amount of mental strain and uncertainty. That is an expected part of the job. If the POW is put in situations like the Viet Nam ones were, than there are other awards they will receive to recognize thier behavior and actions under these circumstances.

 

[BackOrdered]

The whole thing goes to being a "well rounded" officer and understanding how the command you are a part of and could possible be a part of again in the future operates.

I'm a strong believer that the SWSCO is meant to give the Supply Officer the operational understanding needed to support the warfighter. I was told once upon a time there was no such baseline and commands could suffer due to unsavvy SUPPOs not knowing what was "going on" and having zero incentive professionally to find out.

As a department head, I see wanting DISBO/FSO etc standing watch enough to know what is going on and place a clear understanding of the practical use of the knowledge as a Supply corps officer throughout the process. Monopolizing vice familiarizing his free time with watch standing won't do that. I see the balance of professional growth between SWO world and SUPPO land somewhere in that logic. I will say having a credible amount of watch experience gives me the latitude to make this call as a department head to the skipper who has the last word.

Your CDO example was pretty sad and I see exactly what you mean. Any action to ensure the safety of the ship backed by common knowledge will never get you in trouble and the CDO should know better.

 

[RobLyman]

Out of curiosity, is the Army Reg different? Because the Navy 1650 prohibits earning a GWOT-E and ICM in the same deployment, even if you meet the time in-country for both awards (ie: for those of us who spent 30 days in Iraq and then another 30 in Kuwait). One deployment = 1 ribbon. Either way, I'm sure it's a moot point for you by now.

I don't know specifically what the regulations say. I am just going on what they put on my DD214 at the end of my first Iraq deployment.

According to wiki (not an official source) it appears the Army awards the GWOT 30 days after graduation (boot camp, service academy, etc..) and the NDSM immediately. The Iraq Campaign medal is awarded after your time in Iraq.

For me, since I did not graduate from a "source" and was interservice transferred, I was not awarded any medals/ribbons. However, at demobilization in Ft. Hood, TX, they reviewd my DD214 for title 10 active duty time and updated my awards. That is when all of the awards I mentioned were added to my 214.

 

[HAL Pilot]

As a department head, I see wanting DISBO/FSO etc standing watch enough to know what is going on and place a clear understanding of the practical use of the knowledge as a Supply corps officer throughout the process. Monopolizing vice familiarizing his free time with watch standing won't do that. I see the balance of professional growth between SWO world and SUPPO land somewhere in that logic. I will say having a credible amount of watch experience gives me the latitude to make this call as a department head to the skipper who has the last word.

Tiz,
My point is that for every officer watch standing is a collateral duty which his DH would rather not have monopolizing his officers' time. It's no different for the Supply JO or me as the Nuc Weps Offcer. The Gunboss didn't like the time I had to put in on the bridge any more than the Suppo would if it had been one of his JOs. As a P-3 NFO it did no more for my professional growth than it would for a Supply officer. It also did absolutely nothing to enhance my usefulness or peofessional knowledge within the Weapons Department.

As far as the CDO example goes, my point is that if the CDO had been a watch stander during his JO tour, he would have been an asset and known what was going on - like a senior officer should. Every officer in the ship should be a part of the actual operation of the ship, not just have his office onboard the ship. On the small ships this seems to happen but on the large deck ships, it doesn't with the staff officers encouraging this lack of participation.

 

[xj220]

I understand what you are saying but I would also think that any front line combat Marine or Soldier also has a high amount of mental strain and uncertainty. That is an expected part of the job. If the POW is put in situations like the Viet Nam ones were, than there are other awards they will receive to recognize thier behavior and actions under these circumstances.

I've never been in combat or in captivity so I can't speak from experience, but I just see it as being in captivity you're separated from anything friendly and you're at the mercy of your captors (which are the enemy whom you were just trying to kill/trying to kill you) whereas in combat you still have your "team" and support networks. I'm not saying any is easier or safer, I just think that a POW ribbon should rank a little higher up than it is right now.

 

[Catmando]

The POW Medal/ribbon is relatively new. It came into existence in 1986, 13 years after our former Vietnam POWs were released.
Fortunately, it was grandfathered back to WWI.

FWIW, the former POWs I know had already received a Purple Heart.