Midshipman Authorization For Flight Suits

[LFCFan]

I get the impression it's being nuked by direction. I'm glad his leadership is focusing on the really important stuff.

As an intel O, a lot of my peers run into this problem. Sometimes its the other ground Os, sometimes its the Chief's mess. For whatever reason I've noticed that it is more of an issue in helo squadrons, which is odd because they are the only intel Os who could actually fly on a semi-regular basis.

 

[Brett327]

CO sets the tone. FWIW, VP and Helo communities are the SWOs of naval aviation - it's axiomatic. Alternately, I'm not sure there's a good tactical reason to fly our Intel folks other than that it's fun and I want to give them a good deal flight for the sake of inclusion and camaraderie. That said, whomever comes to my squadron as an Intel O is going to get a good amount of flight time. That too, is axiomatic.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I have a bet of how this is going.

1. Chiefs complain about MIDN in flight suits to CMC
2. CMC complains to CO/XO
3. CO/XO don't have the [gender neutral] stones to tell the CMC that MIDN in flight suits is OK because they're not commissioning as LDOs, so what the hell else is there.
4. CO/XO instead decide to farm out MIDN trainO to find justification to placate the CMC.
5. We become more like the AF, where permission is required instead of implied.

wish I could double "like" this

 

[nittany03]

As an intel O, a lot of my peers run into this problem. Sometimes its the other ground Os, sometimes its the Chief's mess. For whatever reason I've noticed that it is more of an issue in helo squadrons, which is odd because they are the only intel Os who could actually fly on a semi-regular basis.

If the Chiefs' mess tail is wagging the ready room dog, a squadron has more serious problems than flight suits.

 

[CW5301]

This is another one of those "clearly its not my Navy any more" threads.

In my day flight suits were organizational clothing, not uniforms. There was no such thing as "flight suit as uniform of the day". That was an Air Force thing, like the pretty scarves, and wearing your flight suit to work in the Pentagon.

If you were engaged in flight-related activity, you wore the appropriate flight-related organizational clothing, whether you were a Midshipman, an E-1, the CNO, or a movie star. When you were not engaged in flight-related activity, you wore the uniform of the day. On the other hand, if you weren't an aviator and not engaged in flight activity (like the Cruiser CO mentioned earlier in the thread) you didn't wear a flight suit just cause you thought it was cool. That guy, at one time, would have been very likely to get a call from the Base CO or TYCOM. The exception to that, late in my career, were SEALs who wore flight suits aboard ship, because the flight suit was actually the most suitable organizational clothing for the activities the SEALs were engaged in (lots of flying on helicopters and being around fire hazards). Also they thought it was cool too.

Some units (like the RAG) were tight about it and expected instructors to change out of their flight suits back into crisp khakis when they were done flying. Others (more common) were pretty flexible about aviators wearing flight suits during the duty day, on the grounds that you never really knew when you might need to go flying, to do an FCF or something. Nothing sucked worse than have maintenance call the ready room and ask "who's available to go flying" and miss out because you were wearing your khakis.

Middies on aviation cruises wore flight suits aboard ship for several appropriate reasons. One was morale/recruiting. The point of an aviation cruise is to orient the Midshipman to Naval Aviation, in order to attract those who would be capable and effective Naval Aviators. Another was that flying opportunities for middies were rare and you wouldn't want to miss out because you weren't prepared. "Waiting in the ready room for a possible flying opportunity" clearly qualified as flight-related activity, requiring the wear of the appropriate organizational clothing.

Regulating the wear of flight suits as a uniform of the day, while denying members of the Naval Service the opportunity to wear the organizational clothing appropriate to their duty (and apparently winking at SWOs wearing flight suits to look cool) seems like yet more examples of the Navy losing its way.

 

[Brett327]

So, not making people change into khakis unless they're flying is an example of the Navy losing its way?

 

[CW5301]

So, not making people change into khakis unless they're flying is an example of the Navy losing its way?

I think that was my point.

It actually makes sense to set a firm policy about the wear of organizational clothing: only when engaged in the activity for which the organizational clothing was required. Otherwise things get more and more lax til you have SWOs wearing flight suits on shore duty to look cool. I saw the "flight suits only when flying" policy get more lax over the course of my career while the flight suit was treated more and more like a "uniform of the day", with lots more official policy about how to wear it, which was worse than being told not to wear it when not flying.

The point of organizational clothing was that it was functional, not a uniform. The flight suit is intended to keep you from burning up in your airplane and provide a place to stash your various small flight-related items where you could reach them while flying. Traditionally Naval Aviators (and Aircrew, and other personnel on flight duty) wore the flight suit as functional clothing to fly in, not as a spiffy uniform with shiny rank, regulated the same as a uniform. For most of my career, the only way to tell the difference between me and my ordnanceman or IFT was by the shape of our wings on the nametag. That was more cool than the way it is now.

For most of the history of Naval Aviation, wear of organizational clothing off base was prohibited. The (limited) exception was wear of the flight suit between home and base when going flying. You weren't even supposed to stop for gas though. I remember seeing Air Force dudes on the Washington Metro in flight suits for the first time and thinking it was getting pretty absurd.

We (as JO's) rebelled against the limitations on wearing flight suits and the chain of command was generally tolerant but maintained some standards. That was probably the right formula.

I think the previous post that suggested the chief's mess complained about middies wearing flight suits probably hit the nail on the head.

 

[Flash]

This is another one of those "clearly its not my Navy any more" threads.....Regulating the wear of flight suits as a uniform of the day, while denying members of the Naval Service the opportunity to wear the organizational clothing appropriate to their duty (and apparently winking at SWOs wearing flight suits to look cool) seems like yet more examples of the Navy losing its way.

The P-3 is dead....long live VP! Seriously, I have seen the policy towards flight suits change to largely be more sensible over the years. The previous 'policy' allowed local commanders to make flight suit uniform policies that had little in the way of common sense. While you still occasionally hear folks complain about things like requiring rank or that we don't make folks wear khakis after finishing flying the current flight suit policy is pretty sound and reasonable.

 

[CW5301]

The point was that the flight suit was not a uniform and by tradition and regulation local commanders established policy for wear of organizational clothing. Clearly that has changed and I definitely thought the old way was better.

While I thought the super-strict policy about changing out of the flight suit after flying (in VA-174, not VP-30, incidentally) was a bit over-the-top at the time, in retrospect I understand and appreciate it. Better than the Navy Uniform Board telling me how to wear a flight suit, anyway.

 

[nittany03]

Better than the Navy Uniform Board telling me how to wear a flight suit, anyway.

No. As annoying as that is, it's really not. I'm not even going to start ranting on the Navy's "traditional" complete and utter constipation regarding working uniforms and what is and is not organizational clothing. I don't condone being like the Army and living in cammies. But still, there's a happy medium, and wearing the penalty suit all day ain't it. "Flight suits only for flying" is a completely unnecessary HAZE-EX, and I'm glad the generation between yours and mine kicked that crap to the curb. If you can't wear a bag professionally these days, peer pressure will fix your ass sooner rather than later. No uniform board BS needed.

 

[Brett327]

I think that was my point.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were a VP guy. It makes perfect sense to me now.

 

[CW5301]

VP was not the most strict about flight suits... they were actually among the more slack. The shipboard squadrons when ashore were tighter and the VF/VA RAGs were the tightest.

A lot of this is about personal preference.

Of course I never wanted to have to put on my khakis either but in retrospect I liked the tradition of the local CO setting the policy for wear of organizational clothing because then you didn't get Chiefs quoting the uniform regulations for what patches went where on your flight suit.

There's a deeper point which may be completely lost. By tradition, throughout history, the Naval Service has been much more informal and less standardized about working uniforms than the land services. Professionalism and warfighting spirit were defined more by _what you did_ than _how you looked_. I kind of liked that.

 

[HAL Pilot]

CW5301,

From your age in you profile, I was a couple of years ahead of you. I was VP.. We wore flight suits on the days we flew and Khakis on the days we didn't. It sucked and everyone wished we just wear flight suits all the time..

We wore flight suits to and from work.. We could stop for gas but that's about it. It sucked. Nobody wanted to change before leaving work if there were errands to run.

When I was on the CVN, the airwing officers wore flight suits all the time. Period.

The Chiefs, LDOs, and SWOs were always talking about organizational clothing versus uniforms, flight jackets not zipped, flight suits sleeves rolled up, etc. we thought they were idiots and both ignored them and laughed at them.

Your Navy was not my Navy. There was not "tradition" involved, only ass pain caused by idiots. If there was any tradition, it was the ignoring and laughing.

Being able to wear a bag as a everyday uniform is one of the few improvements I've seen since my days.

Professionalism has nothing to do with whether you're wearing your khakis or your bag.

 

[squorch2]

If there was any tradition, it was the ignoring and laughing.

This tradition is still going strong.

 

[zippy]

MIDN in flights suits are running around all over NOB, including right up Admirals row... For as anal retentive things can be on NOB, it's pretty telling that no one has an issue with it, so the OPs CoC should probably focus on more important things, like why their Chiefs mess isn't more concerned about the deck plate leadership of junior sailors instead of trying to dictate dress codes for college kids.

Also, in this new Navy, Disassociated tour dudes wear flight suits on the boat now too... It's notjust for air wing guys and O-6 SWOs anymore... The horror.